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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
The left wing media like CNN also blatantly make stuff up. There are numerous examples.
Conway cited a massacre that never happened as justification for the order. If you can provide one similarly glaring case of outright lying I'm happy to see it
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It points to Trump's brilliant understanding of communication today and he did it again and again during the campaign. Say something and back it up with a lie. It doesn't matter if someone calls him out on it because it's already been consumed by the public and they've moved on.
Funny thing is other politicians have been called to account when they make mistakes and it has hurt their chances. It probably points to the underlying disillusionment and distrust of people for their government and career politicians in general, something RS most recently pointed out -
@NTA The middle America that voted Trump in are so desperate for something better that they'll take their chances and will turn a blind eye to it. An indictment on how the political elites forgot them, made them feel ignored and uncared for
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
The left wing media like CNN also blatantly make stuff up. There are numerous examples.
Conway cited a massacre that never happened as justification for the order. If you can provide one similarly glaring case of outright lying I'm happy to see it
On scale or outright lying?
How about just this last day when CNN tweeted out that Milo was a white supremacist? Blatant lie.or from Obama...
"The steel industry is producing as much steel in the United States as it ever was. It’s just (that) it needs one-tenth of the workers that it used to.""
""We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas.""
there are many others.
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@NTA said in US Politics:
There is also the deleterious outbreak of whataboutery from one side, claiming that because the other side did x and y for so long, its only right they get their turn.
Principles? Who needs 'em.
Outbreak?
No
It has been like this for quite awhile. Nothing Obama or MSM did makes a blind bit of the difference to the incorrect statement that Conway made. What is relevant however is the way it is covered and jumped all over by the likes of CNN. -
@canefan said in US Politics:
It points to Trump's brilliant understanding of communication today and he did it again and again during the campaign. Say something and back it up with a lie. It doesn't matter if someone calls him out on it because it's already been consumed by the public and they've moved on.
Funny thing is other politicians have been called to account when they make mistakes and it has hurt their chances. It probably points to the underlying disillusionment and distrust of people for their government and career politicians in general, something RS most recently pointed outIt also points to massive mistrust in a media that by large gave Obama a free reign but jump on every tiny thing from Trump.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
What is relevant however is the way it is covered and jumped all over by the likes of CNN.
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
It also points to massive mistrust in a media that by large gave Obama a free reign but jump on every tiny thing from Trump.
So the media is now doing the thing you wanted them to do to Obama, and that is a problem?
They've got ground to make up on their "cry wolf" style, but do you both consider it a move in the right direction?
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@NTA said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
What is relevant however is the way it is covered and jumped all over by the likes of CNN.
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
It also points to massive mistrust in a media that by large gave Obama a free reign but jump on every tiny thing from Trump.
So the media is now doing the thing you wanted them to do to Obama, and that is a problem?
They've got ground to make up on their "cry wolf" style, but do you both consider it a move in the right direction?
Interesting question. Yes.. and No.
I have no problem holding Trump and his spokespeople up to account. Where it gets tricky is that in the grey areas I simply don't trust them to tell a true account. The bias of not reporting on Obama and reporting on Trump is so incredibly stark it points to an existing bias, and that bias can manifest in 'normal' reporting.
If I actually thought they were moving in the right direction instead of just continuing with an existing bias then I would be happier.Conway fucked up. She should be called on it. I don't think she actually tried to lie though, I think she would know that a claim like that would last about 5 minutes. She was incompetent, not dishonest. Which is actually worse. And I am not saying she is incompetent, I am saying in this instance she was. She has a hard road to hike though.... the MSM are openly biased and hostile.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
The left wing media like CNN also blatantly make stuff up. There are numerous examples.
Conway cited a massacre that never happened as justification for the order. If you can provide one similarly glaring case of outright lying I'm happy to see it
On scale or outright lying?
How about just this last day when CNN tweeted out that Milo was a white supremacist? Blatant lie.or from Obama...
"The steel industry is producing as much steel in the United States as it ever was. It’s just (that) it needs one-tenth of the workers that it used to.""
""We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas.""
there are many others.
Milo is a racist sounds like opinion to me but voiced by the MSM is irresponsible because it could be taken as fact. I don't have figures about US steel but if we are talking about cars of the past vs now I'd agree they are far more efficient wouldn't you? If CNN had stated that Trump was actually born in Germany and was therefore not eligible to run for president that would be a lie
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
The left wing media like CNN also blatantly make stuff up. There are numerous examples.
Conway cited a massacre that never happened as justification for the order. If you can provide one similarly glaring case of outright lying I'm happy to see it
On scale or outright lying?
How about just this last day when CNN tweeted out that Milo was a white supremacist? Blatant lie.or from Obama...
"The steel industry is producing as much steel in the United States as it ever was. It’s just (that) it needs one-tenth of the workers that it used to.""
""We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas.""
there are many others.
Milo is a racist sounds like opinion to me but voiced by the MSM is irresponsible because it could be taken as fact. I don't have figures about US steel but if we are talking about cars of the past vs now I'd agree they are far more efficient wouldn't you? If CNN had stated that Trump was actually born in Germany and was therefore not eligible to run for president that would be a lie
Both of the statements Obama made were FALSE! There were lies. Lies are lies. And those were just 2 examples to prove the point.
The fact you had likely not heard about them is indicative of the way they were largely ignored. Can you honestly analyse the reaction if Trump said that sort of thing today? Or Conway? Alternative facts? Fake News? Widespread coverage?
Surely you can see thew double standard? -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
The bias of not reporting on Obama and reporting on Trump is so incredibly stark it points to an existing bias, and that bias can manifest in 'normal' reporting.
If I actually thought they were moving in the right direction instead of just continuing with an existing bias then I would be happier.It does make me wonder, in the alternate universe, if a garden variety Republican like Cruz won, what the media would be like.
I also wonder what happens if Pence gets the reins.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
The left wing media like CNN also blatantly make stuff up. There are numerous examples.
Conway cited a massacre that never happened as justification for the order. If you can provide one similarly glaring case of outright lying I'm happy to see it
On scale or outright lying?
How about just this last day when CNN tweeted out that Milo was a white supremacist? Blatant lie.or from Obama...
"The steel industry is producing as much steel in the United States as it ever was. It’s just (that) it needs one-tenth of the workers that it used to.""
""We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas.""
there are many others.
Milo is a racist sounds like opinion to me but voiced by the MSM is irresponsible because it could be taken as fact. I don't have figures about US steel but if we are talking about cars of the past vs now I'd agree they are far more efficient wouldn't you? If CNN had stated that Trump was actually born in Germany and was therefore not eligible to run for president that would be a lie
Both of the statements Obama made were FALSE! There were lies. Lies are lies. And those were just 2 examples to prove the point.
The fact you had likely not heard about them is indicative of the way they were largely ignored. Can you honestly analyse the reaction if Trump said that sort of thing today? Or Conway? Alternative facts? Fake News? Widespread coverage?
Surely you can see thew double standard?I'd agree the media is unbalanced in their portrayal of each side; Trump doesn't help himself by being a gobshite. Journos are most commonly liberals and I seem to recall it was the same with Dubya. He was just lucky 9/11 got the country on his side
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
The left wing media like CNN also blatantly make stuff up. There are numerous examples.
Conway cited a massacre that never happened as justification for the order. If you can provide one similarly glaring case of outright lying I'm happy to see it
On scale or outright lying?
How about just this last day when CNN tweeted out that Milo was a white supremacist? Blatant lie.or from Obama...
"The steel industry is producing as much steel in the United States as it ever was. It’s just (that) it needs one-tenth of the workers that it used to.""
""We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas.""
there are many others.
Milo is a racist sounds like opinion to me but voiced by the MSM is irresponsible because it could be taken as fact. I don't have figures about US steel but if we are talking about cars of the past vs now I'd agree they are far more efficient wouldn't you? If CNN had stated that Trump was actually born in Germany and was therefore not eligible to run for president that would be a lie
Both of the statements Obama made were FALSE! There were lies. Lies are lies. And those were just 2 examples to prove the point.
The fact you had likely not heard about them is indicative of the way they were largely ignored. Can you honestly analyse the reaction if Trump said that sort of thing today? Or Conway? Alternative facts? Fake News? Widespread coverage?
Surely you can see thew double standard?So to look at one statement taken on face value, you don't think it is possible that advances in auto technology and fuel efficiency couldn't make the statement about cars and fuel consumption valid?
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@gollum said in US Politics:
Times, Guardian & FT all reporting this -
Both the New York Times and Reuters carried quotes from unnamed military officials that seemed to shift blame for the mission to Trump and his inner team. It would be an extraordinary development for a president, who is commander-in-chief, to be briefed against in such detail.
US military officials told Reuters that Trump approved his first covert counterterrorism operation without sufficient intelligence, ground support or adequate backup preparations.
This is despite the raid being planned under Obama and approved by Defense Secretary Mattis and the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC).
Anyone who knows anything about the military would be laughing at the
Student's Socialist WeeklyGuardian for being ignorant of two things:- The President would merely say yes or no to the raid having been briefed on what it expected to achieve, and
- No plan survives first contact.
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Hardly a "disaster" but the folks back home don't want to hear that the legendary SEAL Team 6 loses men KIA.
I wouldn't say Bannon or Kushner had anything much to add to the conversation at all. As @antipodean says: plans are great, up until they go live.
Was reading this and it raises a few interesting points about the operation itself and how things can go to shit without much difficulty.
Raid in Yemen: Risky From the Start and Costly in the End
WASHINGTON — Just five days after taking office, over dinner with his newly installed secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, President Trump was presented with the first of what will be many life-or-death decisions: whether to approve a commando raid that risked the lives of American Special Operations forces and foreign civilians alike.
President Barack Obama’s national security aides had reviewed the plans for a risky attack on a small, heavily guarded brick home of a senior Qaeda collaborator in a mountainous village in a remote part of central Yemen. But Mr. Obama did not act because the Pentagon wanted to launch the attack on a moonless night and the next one would come after his term had ended.
With two of his closest advisers, Jared Kushner and Stephen K. Bannon, joining the dinner at the White House along with Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., Mr. Trump approved sending in the Navy’s SEAL Team 6, hoping the raid early last Sunday would scoop up cellphones and laptop computers that could yield valuable clues about one of the world’s most dangerous terrorist groups. Vice President Mike Pence and Michael T. Flynn, the national security adviser, also attended the dinner.
As it turned out, almost everything that could go wrong did. And on Wednesday, Mr. Trump flew to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware to be present as the body of the American commando killed in the raid was returned home, the first military death on the new commander in chief’s watch.
The death of Chief Petty Officer William Owens came after a chain of mishaps and misjudgments that plunged the elite commandos into a ferocious 50-minute firefight that also left three others wounded and a $75 million aircraft deliberately destroyed. There are allegations — which the Pentagon acknowledged on Wednesday night are most likely correct — that the mission also killed several civilians, including some children. The dead include, by the account of Al Qaeda’s branch in Yemen, the 8-year-old daughter of Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born Qaeda leader who was killed in a targeted drone strike in 2011.
Mr. Trump on Sunday hailed his first counterterrorism operation as a success, claiming the commandos captured “important intelligence that will assist the U.S. in preventing terrorism against its citizens and people around the world.” A statement by the military’s Central Command on Wednesday night that acknowledged the likelihood of civilian casualties also said that the recovered materials had provided some initial information helpful to counterterrorism analysts. The statement did not provide details.
But the mission’s casualties raise doubts about the months of detailed planning that went into the operation during the Obama administration and whether the right questions were raised before its approval. Typically, the president’s advisers lay out the risks, but Pentagon officials declined to characterize any discussions with Mr. Trump.
A senior administration official said on Wednesday night that the Defense Department had conducted a legal review of the operation that Mr. Trump approved and that a Pentagon lawyer had signed off on it.
Mr. Trump’s new national security team, led by Mr. Flynn, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency and a retired general with experience in counterterrorism raids, has said that it wants to speed the decision-making when it comes to such strikes, delegating more power to lower-level officials so that the military may respond more quickly. Indeed, the Pentagon is drafting such plans to accelerate activities against the Qaeda branch in Yemen.
But doing that also raises the possibility of error. “You can mitigate risk in missions like this, but you can’t mitigate risk down to zero,” said William Wechsler, a former top counterterrorism official at the Pentagon.
In this case, the assault force of several dozen commandos, which also included elite soldiers from the United Arab Emirates, was jinxed from the start. Qaeda fighters were somehow tipped off to the stealthy advance toward the village — perhaps by the whine of American drones that local tribal leaders said were flying lower and louder than usual.
Through a communications intercept, the commandos knew that the mission had been somehow compromised, but pressed on toward their target roughly five miles from where they had been flown into the area. “They kind of knew they were screwed from the beginning,” one former SEAL Team 6 official said.
With the crucial element of surprise lost, the Americans and Emiratis found themselves in a gun battle with Qaeda fighters who took up positions in other houses, a clinic, a school and a mosque, often using women and children as cover, American military officials said in interviews this week.
The commandos were taken aback when some of the women grabbed weapons and started firing, multiplying the militant firepower beyond what they had expected. The Americans called in airstrikes from helicopter gunships and fighter aircraft that helped kill some 14 Qaeda fighters, but not before an MV-22 Osprey aircraft involved in the operation experienced a “hard landing,” injuring three more American personnel on board. The Osprey, which the Marine Corps said cost $75 million, was badly damaged and had to be destroyed by an airstrike.
The raid, some details of which were first reported by The Washington Post, also destroyed much of the village of Yakla, and left senior Yemeni government officials seething. Yemen’s foreign minister, Abdul Malik Al Mekhlafi, condemned the raid on Monday in a post on his official Twitter account as “extrajudicial killings.”
Baraa Shiban, a Yemeni fellow for Reprieve, a London-based human rights group, said he spoke by phone to a tribal sheikh in the village, Jabbr Abu Soraima, who told him: “People were afraid to leave their houses because the sound of choppers and drones were all over the sky. Everyone feared of being hit by the drones or shot by the soldiers on the ground.”
After initially denying there were any civilian casualties, Pentagon officials backtracked somewhat on Sunday after reports from the Yemeni authorities begin trickling in and grisly photographs of bloody children purportedly killed in the attack appeared on social media sites affiliated with Al Qaeda’s branch in Yemen.
Capt. Jeff Davis, a Pentagon spokesman, said on Monday that some of the women were combatants.
The operation was the first known American-led ground mission in Yemen since December 2014, when members of SEAL Team 6 stormed a village in southern Yemen in an effort to free an American photojournalist held hostage by Al Qaeda. But the raid ended with the kidnappers killing the journalist and a South African held with him.
That mission and the raid over the weekend revealed the shortcomings of secretive military operations in Yemen. The United States was forced to withdraw the last 125 Special Operations advisers from the country in March 2015 after Houthi rebels ousted the government of President Abdu Rabbu Mansour Hadi, the Americans’ main counterterrorism partner.
The loss of Yemen as a base for American counterterrorism training, advising and intelligence-gathering was a significant blow to blunting the advance of Al Qaeda’s branch in the country and keeping tabs on their plots. The Pentagon has tried to start rebuilding its counterterrorism operations in Yemen, however; last year, American Special Operations forces helped Emirati troops evict Qaeda fighters from the port city of Mukalla.
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@NTA
A good way to solve this problem is for MSM to get some pro-Trump people in their reporting ranks. Hire journalists who actually understand and identify with his supporters. That Trump supporters can relate to. But I don't think they will do that because their ratings might go down.
Everything is divided into tribes now. -
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
The left wing media like CNN also blatantly make stuff up. There are numerous examples.
Conway cited a massacre that never happened as justification for the order. If you can provide one similarly glaring case of outright lying I'm happy to see it
On scale or outright lying?
How about just this last day when CNN tweeted out that Milo was a white supremacist? Blatant lie.or from Obama...
"The steel industry is producing as much steel in the United States as it ever was. It’s just (that) it needs one-tenth of the workers that it used to.""
""We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas.""
there are many others.
Milo is a racist sounds like opinion to me but voiced by the MSM is irresponsible because it could be taken as fact. I don't have figures about US steel but if we are talking about cars of the past vs now I'd agree they are far more efficient wouldn't you? If CNN had stated that Trump was actually born in Germany and was therefore not eligible to run for president that would be a lie
Both of the statements Obama made were FALSE! There were lies. Lies are lies. And those were just 2 examples to prove the point.
The fact you had likely not heard about them is indicative of the way they were largely ignored. Can you honestly analyse the reaction if Trump said that sort of thing today? Or Conway? Alternative facts? Fake News? Widespread coverage?
Surely you can see thew double standard?So to look at one statement taken on face value, you don't think it is possible that advances in auto technology and fuel efficiency couldn't make the statement about cars and fuel consumption valid?
No it is simply untrue. He wasnt saying things had improved, which they obviously have, he was making an imperical statement of fact.. which was untrue.
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@taniwharugby
Because the vast majority of CNN's/MSNBC's audience is liberal. The US is so tribal now.
US Politics