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Apparently Schwartz (his ghost for "The art of the deal") is now sticking the knife in. On Twitter he reckons Trump will resign by the fall.
I don't know what disturbs me more, the sheer amount of nobodies that are getting their fifteen minutes of fame either lauding or vilifying Trump or the fact that he has associated with so many of these leeches over the years.
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
Apparently Schwartz (his ghost for "The art of the deal") is now sticking the knife in. On Twitter he reckons Trump will resign by the fall.
I don't know what disturbs me more, the sheer amount of nobodies that are getting their fifteen minutes of fame either lauding or vilifying Trump or the fact that he has associated with so many of these leeches over the years.
Schwartz has been sticking the knife in and saying the same things for a year. (And really, when you think about it, the tv-talker producers haven't called this guy in years & decades, and now he knows a sure-fire ticket to tv-land is to give those producers exactly what they crave -- hit pieces on Trump -- so he provides it for them. If he had nice positive things to say about the President, they wouldn't book him, they'd book somebody else who would provide them the narrative they want.)
It's always peak-Trump with these clowns. Any minute now he's gonna quit; any minute now he's going to be impeached... complete mass hysteria.
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the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
There's NO false equivalency.
Neo-Nazis/White supremacists, call 'em what you want, got a legal PERMIT to assemble and hold a rally. As disgusting as their message is, they had a Consitutional right and a legal permit to do so. Black rights activists, native American activists, Muslim activists... these groups all make official requests for permits and they are usually granted, and this is what the Nazi mob did. That's why the ACLU -- certainly no friends of white supremacists -- defended them. It's a 1st Amendment free speech issue.
Whereas the antifa mob had NO such permit. They came with baseball bats and bags of urine, and neither were peace offerings. They came itching for a fight. Their intentions were just as obvious as the Nazis.
That's why Trump said both sides are in the wrong, and nothing he said about this is untrue.
And it wasn't a "white supremacy debate." It was a rally to protect a statue of Robert E. Lee. There is, in spite of your "false equivalency" hoodoo, an actual debate about this very topic. It's just one you either ignore or refuse to see. It's the same debate worth having about the Talban firing mortar shells at the Buddhas of Bamiyan because those monuments are politically incorrect and culturally offensive and impure and symbology of paganism & infidels. Some people believe those monuments were worth preserving, but not the purity-mob.
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
having the right to be an asshole doesn't make being an asshole right.
Precisely my point. Assholes carrying baseball bats and bags of urine and assaulting people is not right -- it's wrong -- it's problematic -- it's a crime -- and Trump was absolutely correct to call them on their assholery.
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@Salacious-Crumb said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
There's NO false equivalency.
Neo-Nazis/White supremacists, call 'em what you want, got a legal PERMIT to assemble and hold a rally. As disgusting as their message is, they had a Consitutional right and a legal permit to do so. Black rights activists, native American activists, Muslim activists... these groups all make official requests for permits and they are usually granted, and this is what the Nazi mob did. That's why the ACLU -- certainly no friends of white supremacists -- defended them. It's a 1st Amendment free speech issue.
Whereas the antifa mob had NO such permit. They came with baseball bats and bags of urine, and neither were peace offerings. They came itching for a fight. Their intentions were just as obvious as the Nazis.
That's why Trump said both sides are in the wrong, and nothing he said about this is untrue.
And it wasn't a "white supremacy debate." It was a rally to protect a statue of Robert E. Lee. There is, in spite of your "false equivalency" hoodoo, an actual debate about this very topic. It's just one you either ignore or refuse to see. It's the same debate worth having about the Talban firing mortar shells at the Buddhas of Bamiyan because those monuments are politically incorrect and culturally offensive and impure and symbology of paganism & infidels. Some people believe those monuments were worth preserving, but not the purity-mob.
yes there absolutely is. you fail to address that point, but are making lots of arguments against things i haven't said there:
i didn't say the white supremacists weren't or shouldn't be allowed to speak;
i didn't say they didn't have a permit;
i didn't say the antifa people were within the law;
i didn't say the antifa people weren't looking for a fight;
i didn't say they were in the right;
i didn't say i was in favour of removing any statues. -
@Salacious-Crumb said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
having the right to be an asshole doesn't make being an asshole right.
Precisely my point. Assholes carrying baseball bats and bags of urine and assaulting people is not right -- it's wrong -- it's problematic -- it's a crime -- and Trump was absolutely correct to call them on their assholery.
I think you may be tarring a small group with the actions of a few there.
Yes, there were extremes on both sides but if taken as general views/intentions of the two sides it is difficult for me to equate them as equal.
I'm totally for open protest and free speech but there are some things that are abhorrent to the majority of a society and if groups want to promote those views then they can expect backlash to try and shut them down. In extreme cases by even parading their views they are inciting trouble.I don't think Trump even thought this through as much as many are giving him credit for. He spoke from gut instinct. IF he had said the whole situation was bad and that aggression is not the answer to intolerance, racism and hate, then that would have been more palatable overall. He completely opened himself up (rightly or wrongly) to accusations of not wanting to speak out against a 'group' that supported him.
The big issue around his presidency is not what he does it is how he does it. His bombastic nature and ego keep leading him (and his administration) into more and more stupid distractions rather that effectively governing. No matter how much advisors point this out he digs the hole deeper.
Forget that the media are out to get him, he is a media whore and the very game he plays is being played back at him. If just put away his phone, put his head down and got on with the job then he may achieve something.
Even if others have lit the fire he is the one that insists on throwing fuel on it all the time to burn brighter.
Neither Trump or Clinton were great options. About the only good thing I can say about this fiasco is that it MIGHT force both parties to put up genuine candidates of ability rather than those that are self claimed legends in their own lunchtime. -
@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
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I remember some years ago visiting my parents in Brisbane and the number 1 news item was a convicted paedophile being released. Furious residents of a small town found out he'd ended up there and they had to be restrained from beating the shit out of him. The premier at the time came out and very forcefully said that the paedophile was now a free man who had served his time and was to be left alone. He wasn't supporting what the guy had done, he wasn't supporting paedophilia, he was telling people what they were doing was illegal and he was upholding the law.
Similar situation applies here. As abhorrent as the gathering in Charlottesville was, they were legally entitled to be there. As much as I personally would like to punch each and every one of these weirdos in the nuts with pointy steelcapped boots, that would be illegal regardless of me having every moral and righteous justification to do so.
When you combine the fact that those committing these acts of violence were in no way morally pure themselves and adhere to ideologies just as dangerous as the white supremacists (some were carrying Soviet flags) then it is correct and sensible to apportion blame to both sides. That isn't an endorsement of one or either side and it's quite appalling that it's being construed as such.
The hysterical reaction to this says everything about the media today.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
Scum who have been violent at multiple protests over the last few months. Just because they faced off against another scummy group of people doesn't make them good.
But stupid people think in binary terms. That side bad.. therefore that side good. No, they can all be arseholesAnother thing worth mentioning is the orders the police departments are getting.
These protests should be two groups of retarded larpers yelling each other from opposite sides of the street, with the police in the middle keeping the peace while rolling their eyes.
Stand down orders are the government inflicting force via proxy. It is dangerous and it will result in escalation at future events. The media should be looking into that more
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It will be interesting to see if Bannon leaving results in policy changes. He was closely linked to the anti-trade policies and a more isolationist foreign policy
Ivanka and Kushner would appear to have more influence now. Does Trump now play footsie with the Democrats on infrastructure (which is similar to Obamas stimulus package)?
Of course it would be difficult for the Dems to work with him after telling everyone he is literally Hitler -
@Duluth said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
Scum who have been violent at multiple protests over the last few months. Just because they faced off against another scummy group of people doesn't make them good.
But stupid people think in binary terms. That side bad.. therefore that side good. No, they can all be arseholesAnother thing worth mentioning is the orders the police departments are getting.
These protests should be two groups of retarded larpers yelling each other from opposite sides of the street, with the police in the middle keeping the peace while rolling their eyes.
Stand down orders are the government inflicting force via proxy. It is dangerous and it will result in escalation at future events. The media should be looking into that more
This has happened a few times now, notably at Berkeley. A Milo event was also crashed by a small number of protesters rushing the stage and the police did nothing. It seems that those making the decisions are petrified of the optics and don't want to be responsible for removing or arresting people who they sympathise with. That is not only a dereliction of their duty as elected officials but also, as you mention, incredibly dangerous.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
This has happened a few times now, notably at Berkeley
I think I'm remembering the right protest.. but that was one of the worst examples
Pro Trump protesters were let into a secure area. In return for entering they had to remove protective gear or anything that could be considered a weapon. Good.
Antifa stood just outside the secure area by the only allowed exit and were not disarmed. Hmmm
After the rally ended the Trump protestors were released in 1s and 2s to run the gauntlet
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
it is possible to be scum, and to be doing awful things, in the support of a positive idea - i.e. opposition to fascism. as i've said, lock the fluffybunnies up.
my point though is that the white supremacists don't have any positive idea. they are scum doing awful things, in the support of an awful idea. that is the false equivalence. -
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
it is possible to be scum, and to be doing awful things, in the support of a positive idea - i.e. opposition to fascism. as i've said, lock the fluffybunnies up.
my point though is that the white supremacists don't have any positive idea. they are scum doing awful things, in the support of an awful idea. that is the false equivalence.I see where you're coming from but I would counter that by saying some lot like ANTIFA are scum, doing awful things in the supposed support of a positive idea, but in reality they are pushing an equally horrible agenda, just not being so unashamedly open about it.
As has been said on here several times the white supremacists etc have no real relevance or traction. The thing that really gets me about the neo-nazis and their ilk is that they give credence to shitheads like ANTIFA.
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@Catogrande yeah i just don't know - it's not like i have any in-depth knowledge of their organisation. what i see is misguided fluffybunnies being fluffybunnies, and it is obvious that something like that is going to attract a whole range of total fucking idiots whose agenda extends way beyond being opposed to fascism. there are similarities with our green party at present. the green thing is a good idea, but it attracts a heap of anti-business idiots - that they are totally wrong on many things makes it impossible to vote for them, but it doesn't make them wrong on the environment cause.
in this specific case, what their stupidity and violence was directed against was something terrible. everything they did was stupid and wrong, and people should go to prison for it - but their opposition was correct.the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Catogrande yeah i just don't know - it's not like i have any in-depth knowledge of their organisation. what i see is misguided fluffybunnies being fluffybunnies, and it is obvious that something like that is going to attract a whole range of total fucking idiots whose agenda extends way beyond being opposed to fascism. there are similarities with our green party at present. the green thing is a good idea, but it attracts a heap of anti-business idiots - that they are totally wrong on many things makes it impossible to vote for them, but it doesn't make them wrong on the environment cause.
in this specific case, what their stupidity and violence was directed against was something terrible. everything they did was stupid and wrong, and people should go to prison for it - but their opposition was correct.the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up.
Stalin was violently opposed to Nazism and Hitler, pity about his other views and actions that made him as bad if not worse than Hitler.
That's ANTIFA in a nutshell.
US Politics