All Blacks 2022
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 Yeah, I understand but the fact of the matter is, and with no slight on the opposition, the ABs played poorly.
They played exactly as well as the opposition let them play. Ireland didn't seem to play that well against French in 6Ns, that was because the French didn't let them. It is the way in our game often I think. I have seen good teams play ABs over the years and look poor, just because ABs have made them look that way. Same with a lot of teams, when they get beaten up in frowards they will struggle to look good. And so I give credit to the team that plays that well. I understand that we not used to seeing the ABs beaten, but it has unfortunately been a trait of a lot of our supporters the first thing we do in a loss we attck the ABs , and don't give credit to other team. It is not just AB supporters, a good number of supporters do it, just this is something that Kieran Crowley pointed out.
That's a part of it, but the main reason we got done was because our forwards performed poorly.
Good teams over the years have looked poor against the ABs at times because of the fast paced game we played, due to our brilliant backs & athletic forwards that had the pace to link up with our backs to keep the momentum going... the forwards played a big part in that by playing with real aggression & cleaning out well at the breakdown.
The breakdown area is vital, it's by far the most contested part of the game, yet we consistently do a poor job there.Crowley said the ABs wouldn't be in the top 2 or 3 favourites for the RWC, that is probably a fair comment going by the way we played last season... but for him to say NZ supporters are arrogant is a ludicrous comment, ABs have a better win/loss record than any other team & have set the benchmark for yonks, so of course NZ supporters expect them to play to a very high standard in all test matches.
Yep I agree with what you say about AB supporters because of their success, but if you listened he actually said a lot couldn't name more than 3-4 of French/Irish team etc. I can kind of understand where he coming from, a hell of a lot of so called AB supporters are winners supporters and don't actually really watch a lot of the game, so think that everyone else should always be weaker than us. He's not talking about the proper rugby men so much, but by geez we have some so called AB supporters that know bugger all about game. I noticed it when I was living in Aus more than any other time, you talk to a kiwi in his AB jersey etc, and ask about a test match that had taken place not involving the ABs, and often had no idea of what had happened etc.. We get a lot of them on internet forums that learn all their rugby from reading forums and seeing the odd game on tv, but have no real idea of the game.
To be fair though as NZers we tend to watch our own comps & players more than the overseas stuff, which is understandable, other countries would be doing the same thing with their players.
Yeah, very good point about those so called supporters, they basically go by the reputation of the ABs, but know stuff all about the game... can see the ones that know their rugby properly by the way they analyse it through things like strengths & weaknesses of players in detail, how good they're under pressure, adapting tactics throughout a match when needed etc.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
I'm not as enamored with the AS "yards after contact" as some because i see too many turn in to slow ball situations
TBF I think the other forwards need to take some heat there too, often he does gain ground or fights on through only to end up isolated, like you say, then if we do retain the ball, it is slow, but also exposes him to being turned over.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
IMO the ABs success over the past two decades has been built on
Defense, don't concede more than 20 points
Counter-attack. Ruthlessly exploit turnover and bad kicking to score the 23 points needed to win.We're not a multi-phase structure sort of side, other than to pull teams ragged to open those counter-attack opportunities (why we used to win so many games late). We don't bash teams in to submission. At our best we were very pragmatic with our field position, doing fuck all in our half (except on turnover).
What helped us was the inherent quality of our backs, and the fact that all our forwards have ball skills so movements don't die with them. Our level of support play was also second to none, guys would be queuing up to score.
Which is why the keys to beating us have been the same for ages. Don't turn the ball over. Don't kick aimlessly.
Where i think we have fallen down is, we are still trying to play this game. But, we are generating far fewer turnovers and our slightly passive linespeed means there are less shit kicks delivered to our back 3.
Why are we getting less turnovers? Other teams are winning collisions, making turnovers very hard, and we don't have breakdown guys of the quality we used to have.
Our overall skills are down meaning we shell maybe one or two more opportunities than we used to.
And our defence has gone from our greatest strength to i think our biggest weakness. Could you see the current side trapping South Africa in their 22 and just keeping them there to win a RWC semi?
And there is your difference.So where is plan B?
This word "pragmatism" perfectly sums up what we were when at our best and what appears to be missing now.
It's easy to forget when looking at what happened before and after, but we won our first RWC in 24 years playing 10 man, box-kicking, play for territory and collect points in 3s, rugby. I'm not advocating for us to play that style, but merely using it to demonstrate (a) a pragmatic approach that seems to have been abandoned, and (b) that we can actually be successful when playing a style that is not "natural" to us.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial Vaa'i at 6 means you need a certain type of no.8, i.e., not Savea.
I remain convinced that looking for a blindside to plug the holes in our loose forwards capability is part of the problem if your starting point is the 8 has to be Savea who should be a super sub.
Except he is the best 8 in the country at the moment.
I know he seems more a SuperRugby 8 than a test one but who goes in ahead of him AND is a better player and leader.
That's the quandary.I also get that if he is at 8 we need a six that plays up and down the track more and stops fringe runners in their tracks.
Now tell me who that guy is.
If Savea is the answer to the leadership question, that's a real problem
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@junior said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial Vaa'i at 6 means you need a certain type of no.8, i.e., not Savea.
I remain convinced that looking for a blindside to plug the holes in our loose forwards capability is part of the problem if your starting point is the 8 has to be Savea who should be a super sub.
Except he is the best 8 in the country at the moment.
I know he seems more a SuperRugby 8 than a test one but who goes in ahead of him AND is a better player and leader.
That's the quandary.I also get that if he is at 8 we need a six that plays up and down the track more and stops fringe runners in their tracks.
Now tell me who that guy is.
If Savea is the answer to the leadership question, that's a real problem
Where did you get that from?
He’s one of the team’s leaders and has great support from the players around him.
I’m not saying he should be full time captain or anything just that if we are going to bring young players in we need to balance that with leadership. -
Regarding DMac (and the speculation back in the thread) this was in Stuff today...
**The Chiefs are confident Damian McKenzie will be back for 2023.
McKenzie, currently playing in Japan, has yet to recommit to NZ Rugby but Chiefs chief executive Michael Collins indicated the All Black won't be lost to New Zealand ahead of the World Cup in France.
Asked if McKenzie would return to the Chiefs, Collins stated: "Yes, 100 percent.''
This should end speculation that fullback/No 10 McKenzie could be tempted to stay offshore. "We know he hasn't quite inked that deal, but all the comms we have had with him have all been really positive,'' Collins added.
"So, yes, I would be expecting him back here next year, for sure.''**
I'm pretty sure that puts him in a similar spot to TJP. Chiefs don't expect to see him until next season so any AB call up would be dependant on him re-signing and playing ITM Cup.
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@junior said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial Vaa'i at 6 means you need a certain type of no.8, i.e., not Savea.
I remain convinced that looking for a blindside to plug the holes in our loose forwards capability is part of the problem if your starting point is the 8 has to be Savea who should be a super sub.
Except he is the best 8 in the country at the moment.
I know he seems more a SuperRugby 8 than a test one but who goes in ahead of him AND is a better player and leader.
That's the quandary.I also get that if he is at 8 we need a six that plays up and down the track more and stops fringe runners in their tracks.
Now tell me who that guy is.
If Savea is the answer to the leadership question, that's a real problem
I suspect you don't realise he is llready part of leadership group. I didn't realise there was a leadershio question, Sam Cane is captain , and have seen nothing to indicate he not holding the job.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
Perofeta. Great passing game, great short game. Combination with Christie and works brilliantly with the quick ball Smith would provide too. Get him in.
If he keeps this up all SR, then yep. Kicking is a bit iffy, but that's what jordie is for!
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@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
Perofeta. Great passing game, great short game. Combination with Christie and works brilliantly with the quick ball Smith would provide too. Get him in.
If he keeps this up all SR, then yep. Kicking is a bit iffy, but that's what jordie is for!
Yeah exactly....or Havili 😉
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@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
Perofeta. Great passing game, great short game. Combination with Christie and works brilliantly with the quick ball Smith would provide too. Get him in.
If he keeps this up all SR, then yep. Kicking is a bit iffy, but that's what jordie is for!
Yeah exactly....or Havili 😉
🤮
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@junior said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial Vaa'i at 6 means you need a certain type of no.8, i.e., not Savea.
I remain convinced that looking for a blindside to plug the holes in our loose forwards capability is part of the problem if your starting point is the 8 has to be Savea who should be a super sub.
Except he is the best 8 in the country at the moment.
I know he seems more a SuperRugby 8 than a test one but who goes in ahead of him AND is a better player and leader.
That's the quandary.I also get that if he is at 8 we need a six that plays up and down the track more and stops fringe runners in their tracks.
Now tell me who that guy is.
If Savea is the answer to the leadership question, that's a real problem
Savea brings experience, always give 110% and stepped up to the plate (with SW) when Cane was injured. Can't ask more than that.
That said, I think a fit Sam Cane and a bit of stability in the captaincy will be really helpful but big ups to Ardie and Sam for taking the captaincy in a bloody difficult year.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
Perofeta. Great passing game, great short game. Combination with Christie and works brilliantly with the quick ball Smith would provide too. Get him in.
Only watched for a game or two this year, but he seems to have matured a heck of a lot. Def. worth a run.
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So what would a startimg 15 look like right now, with our injuries.
Any surprises?
Moody, Samsoni, Hodgman
BBBR, Vaai
Blackadder, Ardie, Cane
Smith, Mounga
Havili, ALB
Reece, Jordan, JordieBuggar all changes really with a few injuries and pending holidays...obviously a 'what should the 15 be' would have a few changes I expect.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
Perofeta. Great passing game, great short game. Combination with Christie and works brilliantly with the quick ball Smith would provide too. Get him in.
At the very least he’s a clear third choice that’s worth a look at the next level. After that clutch kick, his goal kicking has been disappointing but the rest of his game has been great. All the time in the world.
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@taniwharugby Scott Barrett at lock, instead of Vaa'i (who doesn't even play there, at the moment).
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
So what would a startimg 15 look like right now, with our injuries.
Any surprises?
Moody, Samsoni, Hodgman
Both LHs.
If, hypothetically, JB is used at 12 and Jordan goes to fullback, then Ioane might have to move to the right wing again. There are more options for a power left winger than right wingers.
