All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
ABs running around like headless chooks.
while Richie Mo'unga is your starting 10, and BBarrett is your backup, you aren't going to see much else no matter who has "head Coach" on his office door.
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
ABs running around like headless chooks.
while Richie Mo'unga is your starting 10, and BBarrett is your backup, you aren't going to see much else no matter who has "head Coach" on his office door.
The interesting thing about that is both look like being gone post WC.
Who the hell is next in line
McKenzie,
Perofeta needs game time in that position.
Gatland,
Burke
CameronNo one really stands out,Probably need one of the young ones in the squads or just underneath that tier to come through.
And will it be a creative type First Five they look for or someone who just does the basic well, but maybe not an attacking threat. -
Zarn Sullivan has all the tools. Will be interesting to see who emerges in 2024. Both the young Hurricanes 10s look handy.
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@Tim said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Zarn Sullivan has all the tools. Will be interesting to see who emerges in 2024. Both the young Hurricanes 10s look handy.
Yep there is 3 more I missed
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@Tim said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Zarn Sullivan has all the tools. Will be interesting to see who emerges in 2024. Both the young Hurricanes 10s look handy.
Another part to that in 2024 will Sullivan get a chance at the Blues ?
Or Perofeta takes over 10.
If the latter happens will Sullivan have to move.
Another one maybe Taha Kemara if he can get game time. when RM goes to Japan more 2025 onwards for him I guess. -
Zarn Sullivan - everything screams "All Black" when you see him play - has to play at 10 at SR and NPC level first. Love wasn't good at 10 for the Canes at all, and is more a fullback. Morgan, still far and far away. I'd pick Josh Ioane ahead of him.
Of the youngest crop, Kemara, Cam Miller, Harry Godfrey, Lucas Cashmore, maybe Alex Harford (I'm sure I forgot someone), are the ones to look out for, but for them, 2024 will be too soon.
Brett Cameron? Needs a few good SR seasons first. Not convinced. I'd pick Lincoln McClutchie over him.
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I'll be interested to see what Gatland does as he is off-contract next year. His game would be perfectly suited to the NH.
Add Trask to the contenders, as he is obviously the 1st 5 the Chiefs will use going forward. Reihana is also in the mix.
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To me, it's essential that players actually play at 10 at SR level, to be considered as an ABs 10 (starter or bench). If they play at fullback for their SR franchise, they shouldn't be more than 10 injury cover for the ABs.
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I split this off so people may actually read it. The original thread, for obvious reasons, is the most ignored on the forum
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
To me, it's essential that players actually play at 10 at SR level, to be considered as an ABs 10 (starter or bench). If they play at fullback for their SR franchise, they shouldn't be more than 10 injury cover for the ABs.
Yep agree, The next First Five Should be playing that position during SR.
Pretty tough playing SR at FB then converting to 10 for internationals. -
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
To me, it's essential that players actually play at 10 at SR level, to be considered as an ABs 10 (starter or bench). If they play at fullback for their SR franchise, they shouldn't be more than 10 injury cover for the ABs.
Perofeta and Sullivan (whoever starts at 15) will likely be getting 25/30mins at the end of games, and the occasional start at 10 at SR level.
With BB now slotting in at fullback for the ABs, I'd like to see him stay there at SR level too. Helps Perofeta develop and both players playing there helps the ABs next year.
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Ruben Love was very good at fullback this year for all the teams he represented. Probably hasn’t had a tone of game time at 10 but he has shown with the few games he’s played in that position that he is more than capable of being a top first five in NZ. An example that springs to mind is when he came on at 10 in that Hurricanes V Blues game earlier this year where he was heavily influential in the Hurricanes come back win.
In saying that I feel Love is a fullback first and a first five second so whether we even see him in that 10 jersey going forward remains to be seen.
We really look a bit meh at 10 if Barrett and Mo’unga move on. McKenzie is probably the standout. All of Gatland, Perofeta, Cameron and Burke don’t really set the house on fire for me and the younger guys like Morgan, Sullivan, McLutchie need to prove themselves more over the next 2 years.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
Ruben Love was very good at fullback this year for all the teams he represented. Probably hasn’t had a tone of game time at 10 but he has shown with the few games he’s played in that position that he is more than capable of being a top first five in NZ. An example that springs to mind is when he came on at 10 in that Hurricanes V Blues game earlier this year where he was heavily influential in the Hurricanes come back win.
In saying that I feel Love is a fullback first and a first five second so whether we even see him in that 10 jersey going forward remains to be seen.
We really look a bit meh at 10 if Barrett and Mo’unga move on. McKenzie is probably the standout. All of Gatland, Perofeta, Cameron and Burke don’t really set the house on fire for me and the younger guys like Morgan, Sullivan, McLutchie need to prove themselves more over the next 2 years.
Yep we have been spoilt for a few years, and will take a few years for a new to really settle at test level, well usually does.
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@Canes4life wax lyrical about a guy who's a handy fullback and shithouse 10, apart from that one game where he played 5 minutes of good rugby...but yeah none of the others who have actually played in the position and performed to a much higher level light your fire...
You could occasionally try removing your head from the anus of the hurricanes, when forming your opinion.
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while there always seems to be an abundance of talented kids running about, its the development and learning form the old hands at club - NPC and above that is the issue as these kids tend to go straight from school into super squads.
DC was 20 when he played for Canterbury, 21 when he played for the Crusaders, but when he was an established AB, we had several 10s sitting behind him that we'd likely kill for right now: Slade, Cruden, Donald...
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@Bones said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life wax lyrical about a guy who's a handy fullback and shithouse 10, apart from that one game where he played 5 minutes of good rugby...but yeah none of the others who have actually played in the position and performed to a much higher level light your fire...
You could occasionally try removing your head from the anus of the hurricanes, when forming your opinion.
That’s exactly it, he’s hardly played 10 so how can you call him a shithouse 10 when he’s barely played in that position in almost a year. Seems very logical.
I’m forming my opinion based off what I’ve seen from him as a fullback, I couldn’t care less if he was in the Hurricanes. Beaudy made a successful transition from being a classy fullback to a sound 10, same with McKenzie. There is no reason guys like Love and Sullivan can’t do the same with more time running the cutter.
Just look at Love’s qualities. He’s not afraid to attack the line, he’s a solid defender, he’s got a sound boot on him and he’s not afraid to bark orders. He also seems to thrive under pressure. These are the ingredients that form the foundation of a quality first five. Am I right, or am I right?
As a rugby player he’s definitely got a higher ceiling than the likes of Hunt, Gatland, McLutchie, Burke etc who are all either too small or just a bit shit from what I’ve seen. If they make the All Blacks we are in trouble. Period. Same goes with Cameron who by the way is in the Hurricanes.
Right now the top four guys I would even consider as an AB 10 in the future would be Perofeta, Sullivan (same reasoning as Love), Love and the obvious one being McKenzie. Ironically they are all probably considered fullbacks before first fives, but I guess our options decrease rapidly when the regular 10s in NZ rugby atm are just not cutting it.
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Weird that no one is talking about McKenzie's performances for NZ XV and Barbarians. He's probably our form 10 at the moment, he's certainly looked a superior game-manager to Barrett and Mo'unga recently & I highly doubt McMillan will use him at 15 again. Dmac is the future at 10 and is the obvious candidate, yet people on here are still carrying on as if he's a fullback. He's always been a better 10, even as far back as his school boy years.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
Weird that no one is talking about McKenzie's performances for NZ XV and Barbarians. He's probably our form 10 at the moment, he's certainly looked a superior game-manager to Barrett and Mo'unga recently & I highly doubt McMillan will use him at 15 again. Dmac is the future at 10 and is the obvious candidate, yet people on here are still carrying on as if he's still a fullback. He's always been better at 10, even as far back as his school boy years.
I agree with you that McKenzie is the guy post World Cup. Even though I see him as a fullback first, he has more than shown his worth at 10 on the international stage and is the only guy with any real experience at test level. He’s the best option we have by quite a long way until others get more international minutes under their belt.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
Weird that no one is talking about McKenzie's performances for NZ XV and Barbarians. He's probably our form 10 at the moment, he's certainly looked a superior game-manager to Barrett and Mo'unga recently & I highly doubt McMillan will use him at 15 again. Dmac is the future at 10 and is the obvious candidate, yet people on here are still carrying on as if he's a fullback. He's always been a better 10, even as far back as his school boy years.
Nothing weird about that. See the second post of this thread. @Chris made a list that started this discussion. McKenzie is right at the top of the list. Maybe, just maybe, there was no reason to discuss McKenzie because everyone agreed with that placement at the top of the list?
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To be fair, there's a good chance McKenzie won't stay in NZ after the World Cup either.
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@Mr-Fish Yeah, that's a possibility. He turns 28 in April 2023, so is at that age that players often pack their bags for good. Although, having just returned from his sabbatical, he may consider staying a few years longer. I guess it all depends on the offers he receives and whether they are too good to refuse.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
while there always seems to be an abundance of talented kids running about, its the development and learning form the old hands at club - NPC and above that is the issue as these kids tend to go straight from school into super squads.
DC was 20 when he played for Canterbury, 21 when he played for the Crusaders, but when he was an established AB, we had several 10s sitting behind him that we'd likely kill for right now: Slade, Cruden, Donald...
TBH I'd only kill for Cruden, I'd probably maim for Donald, maybe a light slap for Slade.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
That’s exactly it, he’s hardly played 10 so how can you call him a shithouse 10 when he’s barely played in that position in almost a year. Seems very logical.
My opinion is formed by whenever he's played 10, he's been sub standard which resulted in him being moved to fullback. Then Morgan came in and out performed him completely.
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Lots of work-ons in his game, but I predict big things for Aidan Morgan, FAB.
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@Canes4life 15 is Reuben Love's best position.
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@Nepia I reckon all have a better ability to manage a game than Mounga and BB have the past year or so...that said, I don't doubt if they were given a bit tighter parameters with which to operate I think they could run things better.
Problem is we have 2 experienced players, probably given free licence to play how they see it, which is all well and good, but you also need some targets to hit, some lines to try stay inside as well.
Instinct is great but I think there is room in our game for some tighter structure too.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life 15 is Reuben Love's best position.
I'm not disputing that, all I'm saying is that if the cupboard is bare I think Love could end up being a quality 10 aswell.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life 15 is Reuben Love's best position.
I'm not disputing that, all I'm saying is that if the cupboard is bare I think Love could end up being a quality 10 aswell.
Not exactly high praise.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life 15 is Reuben Love's best position.
I'm not disputing that, all I'm saying is that if the cupboard is bare I think Love could end up being a quality 10 aswell.
Not exactly high praise.
No not high praise , but quite a sensible post I thought. In a thread really just discussing possibilities.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
That’s exactly it, he’s hardly played 10 so how can you call him a shithouse 10 when he’s barely played in that position in almost a year. Seems very logical.
My opinion is formed by whenever he's played 10, he's been sub standard which resulted in him being moved to fullback. Then Morgan came in and out performed him completely.
I've made this point before, but whenever both Love and Morgan have been in the same NZ age-group teams, it is always Morgan who has started at 1st 5. Love was on the wing for the NZ Schools team they both played in. I also believe that Love is a fullback.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Nepia I reckon all have a better ability to manage a game than Mounga and BB have the past year or so...that said, I don't doubt if they were given a bit tighter parameters with which to operate I think they could run things better.
Problem is we have 2 experienced players, probably given free licence to play how they see it, which is all well and good, but you also need some targets to hit, some lines to try stay inside as well.
Instinct is great but I think there is room in our game for some tighter structure too.
As much as I would love to see more of the skills a 10 can show, at present the game is almost NFL like in that you need a 10 to be able to tactically move pieces around the field through their influence in an attempt to break the opposition down.
For that you need vision, kicking from hand skills and be able to pt the ball through your hands hitting your next target very accurately. The programmed first couple of phases to try and manipulate can breakdown or backfire with inaccuracy.
RM and BB have always been very good opportunists and that isn't serving them well at the moment as the slight look for a chance delays the set move. That's a simplification of course but you see what I am getting at.As for others, there are no candidates that have AB10 or future AB10 on the back of their jerseys. There's a few that I'd like to see given a chance to run a game at a higher level so we can see what they can do (Sullivan, Kemara) and a handful that look like they could be competent but not excellent (the other names mentioned).
DMac is the obvious injury replacement and maybe it will take a Beaver moment for him to play a RWC but I agree that he isn't any more than a short term future until others come through. I think there was a missed opportunity on the eoyt to give hi a proper AB game as he is mature enough now to adjust to the level and requirements of the game. Of the three experienced 10s running at the moment he has the best vision and is the best passer IMO.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
maybe a light slap for Slade
he would be out for 4 weeks you monster
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@booboo said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life 15 is Reuben Love's best position.
I'm not disputing that, all I'm saying is that if the cupboard is bare I think Love could end up being a quality 10 aswell.
Not exactly high praise.
No not high praise , but quite a sensible post I thought. In a thread really just discussing possibilities.
no, it's an incredibly average post considering we are talking about the starting 10 for the ABs in like 18 months. Not maybe possibly playing for the Canes there at some point.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
For that you need vision, kicking from hand skills and be able to pt the ball through your hands hitting your next target very accurately. The programmed first couple of phases to try and manipulate can breakdown or backfire with inaccuracy
And guess what? That's not what makes a good Super Rugby 10. in fact that would get you looked down upon. You need to play off-the-cuff, heads up, play what you see footy and have a dynamite running game. You'll look a million bucks against average defensive systems. And then you'll play against an organised test side and look very ordinary.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
For that you need vision, kicking from hand skills and be able to pt the ball through your hands hitting your next target very accurately. The programmed first couple of phases to try and manipulate can breakdown or backfire with inaccuracy
And guess what? That's not what makes a good Super Rugby 10. in fact that would get you looked down upon. You need to play off-the-cuff, heads up, play what you see footy and have a dynamite running game. You'll look a million bucks against average defensive systems. And then you'll play against an organised test side and look very ordinary.
You still talking about 10’s or have you moved onto forwards?
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@voodoo said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
For that you need vision, kicking from hand skills and be able to pt the ball through your hands hitting your next target very accurately. The programmed first couple of phases to try and manipulate can breakdown or backfire with inaccuracy
And guess what? That's not what makes a good Super Rugby 10. in fact that would get you looked down upon. You need to play off-the-cuff, heads up, play what you see footy and have a dynamite running game. You'll look a million bucks against average defensive systems. And then you'll play against an organised test side and look very ordinary.
You still talking about 10’s or have you moved onto forwards?
hitting rucks is for suckers. galivanting in midfield with the ball in one hand makes you a star
quick, someone make a youtube reel with a sick hip hop track
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@Chris said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
The interesting thing about that is both look like being gone post WC.
Beaudy I agree with but what makes you think Richie will move on? If Razor ends up taking the reins post WC, surely Richie is his number one man.
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@Canes4life Be very surprised if DMac is not the form No.10 next year provided he is injury free. Reliable goalkicker and his linking with Shaun Stevenson as seen in the game against Ireland A. Also be surprised if Shaun Stevenson is overlooked next year.
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Canes4life Be very surprised if DMac is not the form No.10 next year provided he is injury free. Reliable goalkicker and his linking with Shaun Stevenson as seen in the game against Ireland A. Also be surprised if Shaun Stevenson is overlooked next year.
two things
If the Chiefs play DMac at 10 and SS on the wing because that is what they think is best use of resources then that plan is already dead in the water
And i would be very surprised if either forced their way in to the core group next year. I think the top 23 is nearly locked in except in place of injury.
