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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
s.Whilst I'm no fan of May and her handling of this issue (and the fucking election) I do think that calling this May's deal is not really the point. This is the EU's deal. She doesn't get to choose what goes in to the deal and what stays out, they do. Some would say that's a good illustration of what is wrong with the EU but in this instance I think it is just negotiating from a strong position. Their strong position is a direct result of our weak position and that is not down to May in the main.
Probably fair, however the timing of all this unfolding is purely down to May, so I'm in no position to be charitable. If this process was where it is right now 6-12 months ago, then thats fine. But not now.
I’m not so sure that it’s purely down to May, sure she’s handled things badly but she has never had a united cabinet behind her, with many flip/flopping around. Not giving her a get out of jail free card but she’s the only one to really stick their head above the parapet and she she looks round for support she sees fuck all.
Of course it's not purely down to May. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and crew should take blame as well for creating such a split down the party. Maybe May felt her only option was to just do what she wanted and that's that.
However, she put her hand up for the job, talked the talk and we are where we are.
If it's not her deal, and it's the EU's deal, then she shouldn't even be presenting it. This deal has been out there a while, and I'd still say it was late.
With Corbyn insisting publicly that no deal be taken off the table and the DUP wanting nothing to do with a no deal, she had fuck all cards to play. Add to that a bunch of fluffybunnies as her “allies”, I’d say she was pretty much hamstrung.It's quite different even 6 months out saying, the EU are pushing this parliament into a no-deal Brexit due to this deal and therefore I must conclude we prepare for that. The EU have shown quite clearly they are dead against no-deal Brexit and hence will have softened.
I agree with this point but the (her?) inability to garner any meaningful support, leaves her a long way up shit creek sans paddle. She’s not done well (understatement alert) but when we’re lining up all the duplicitous and useless fluffybunnies up against the wall to be shot, well we’ll need a bloody long wall.
I think there is one being built just north of Mexico which may work?
So you just apportion blame to May and Brexiters?
I am shocked....No. Not even close to what I said.
Did you name and blame the Remainers?
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
s.Whilst I'm no fan of May and her handling of this issue (and the fucking election) I do think that calling this May's deal is not really the point. This is the EU's deal. She doesn't get to choose what goes in to the deal and what stays out, they do. Some would say that's a good illustration of what is wrong with the EU but in this instance I think it is just negotiating from a strong position. Their strong position is a direct result of our weak position and that is not down to May in the main.
Probably fair, however the timing of all this unfolding is purely down to May, so I'm in no position to be charitable. If this process was where it is right now 6-12 months ago, then thats fine. But not now.
I’m not so sure that it’s purely down to May, sure she’s handled things badly but she has never had a united cabinet behind her, with many flip/flopping around. Not giving her a get out of jail free card but she’s the only one to really stick their head above the parapet and she she looks round for support she sees fuck all.
Of course it's not purely down to May. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and crew should take blame as well for creating such a split down the party. Maybe May felt her only option was to just do what she wanted and that's that.
However, she put her hand up for the job, talked the talk and we are where we are.
If it's not her deal, and it's the EU's deal, then she shouldn't even be presenting it. This deal has been out there a while, and I'd still say it was late.
With Corbyn insisting publicly that no deal be taken off the table and the DUP wanting nothing to do with a no deal, she had fuck all cards to play. Add to that a bunch of fluffybunnies as her “allies”, I’d say she was pretty much hamstrung.It's quite different even 6 months out saying, the EU are pushing this parliament into a no-deal Brexit due to this deal and therefore I must conclude we prepare for that. The EU have shown quite clearly they are dead against no-deal Brexit and hence will have softened.
I agree with this point but the (her?) inability to garner any meaningful support, leaves her a long way up shit creek sans paddle. She’s not done well (understatement alert) but when we’re lining up all the duplicitous and useless fluffybunnies up against the wall to be shot, well we’ll need a bloody long wall.
I think there is one being built just north of Mexico which may work?
So you just apportion blame to May and Brexiters?
I am shocked....No. Not even close to what I said.
Did you name and blame the Remainers?
At no point did I blame anybody on their remain / leave views.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
s.Whilst I'm no fan of May and her handling of this issue (and the fucking election) I do think that calling this May's deal is not really the point. This is the EU's deal. She doesn't get to choose what goes in to the deal and what stays out, they do. Some would say that's a good illustration of what is wrong with the EU but in this instance I think it is just negotiating from a strong position. Their strong position is a direct result of our weak position and that is not down to May in the main.
Probably fair, however the timing of all this unfolding is purely down to May, so I'm in no position to be charitable. If this process was where it is right now 6-12 months ago, then thats fine. But not now.
I’m not so sure that it’s purely down to May, sure she’s handled things badly but she has never had a united cabinet behind her, with many flip/flopping around. Not giving her a get out of jail free card but she’s the only one to really stick their head above the parapet and she she looks round for support she sees fuck all.
Of course it's not purely down to May. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and crew should take blame as well for creating such a split down the party. Maybe May felt her only option was to just do what she wanted and that's that.
However, she put her hand up for the job, talked the talk and we are where we are.
If it's not her deal, and it's the EU's deal, then she shouldn't even be presenting it. This deal has been out there a while, and I'd still say it was late.
With Corbyn insisting publicly that no deal be taken off the table and the DUP wanting nothing to do with a no deal, she had fuck all cards to play. Add to that a bunch of fluffybunnies as her “allies”, I’d say she was pretty much hamstrung.It's quite different even 6 months out saying, the EU are pushing this parliament into a no-deal Brexit due to this deal and therefore I must conclude we prepare for that. The EU have shown quite clearly they are dead against no-deal Brexit and hence will have softened.
I agree with this point but the (her?) inability to garner any meaningful support, leaves her a long way up shit creek sans paddle. She’s not done well (understatement alert) but when we’re lining up all the duplicitous and useless fluffybunnies up against the wall to be shot, well we’ll need a bloody long wall.
I think there is one being built just north of Mexico which may work?
So you just apportion blame to May and Brexiters?
I am shocked....No. Not even close to what I said.
Did you name and blame the Remainers?
At no point did I blame anybody on their remain / leave views.
You specifically listed Mogg and Johnson....
and zero remainers. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
s.Whilst I'm no fan of May and her handling of this issue (and the fucking election) I do think that calling this May's deal is not really the point. This is the EU's deal. She doesn't get to choose what goes in to the deal and what stays out, they do. Some would say that's a good illustration of what is wrong with the EU but in this instance I think it is just negotiating from a strong position. Their strong position is a direct result of our weak position and that is not down to May in the main.
Probably fair, however the timing of all this unfolding is purely down to May, so I'm in no position to be charitable. If this process was where it is right now 6-12 months ago, then thats fine. But not now.
I’m not so sure that it’s purely down to May, sure she’s handled things badly but she has never had a united cabinet behind her, with many flip/flopping around. Not giving her a get out of jail free card but she’s the only one to really stick their head above the parapet and she she looks round for support she sees fuck all.
Of course it's not purely down to May. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and crew should take blame as well for creating such a split down the party. Maybe May felt her only option was to just do what she wanted and that's that.
However, she put her hand up for the job, talked the talk and we are where we are.
If it's not her deal, and it's the EU's deal, then she shouldn't even be presenting it. This deal has been out there a while, and I'd still say it was late.
With Corbyn insisting publicly that no deal be taken off the table and the DUP wanting nothing to do with a no deal, she had fuck all cards to play. Add to that a bunch of fluffybunnies as her “allies”, I’d say she was pretty much hamstrung.It's quite different even 6 months out saying, the EU are pushing this parliament into a no-deal Brexit due to this deal and therefore I must conclude we prepare for that. The EU have shown quite clearly they are dead against no-deal Brexit and hence will have softened.
I agree with this point but the (her?) inability to garner any meaningful support, leaves her a long way up shit creek sans paddle. She’s not done well (understatement alert) but when we’re lining up all the duplicitous and useless fluffybunnies up against the wall to be shot, well we’ll need a bloody long wall.
I think there is one being built just north of Mexico which may work?
So you just apportion blame to May and Brexiters?
I am shocked....No. Not even close to what I said.
Did you name and blame the Remainers?
At no point did I blame anybody on their remain / leave views.
You specifically listed Mogg and Johnson....
and zero remainers.May is a leaver? Wow.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
s.Whilst I'm no fan of May and her handling of this issue (and the fucking election) I do think that calling this May's deal is not really the point. This is the EU's deal. She doesn't get to choose what goes in to the deal and what stays out, they do. Some would say that's a good illustration of what is wrong with the EU but in this instance I think it is just negotiating from a strong position. Their strong position is a direct result of our weak position and that is not down to May in the main.
Probably fair, however the timing of all this unfolding is purely down to May, so I'm in no position to be charitable. If this process was where it is right now 6-12 months ago, then thats fine. But not now.
I’m not so sure that it’s purely down to May, sure she’s handled things badly but she has never had a united cabinet behind her, with many flip/flopping around. Not giving her a get out of jail free card but she’s the only one to really stick their head above the parapet and she she looks round for support she sees fuck all.
Of course it's not purely down to May. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and crew should take blame as well for creating such a split down the party. Maybe May felt her only option was to just do what she wanted and that's that.
However, she put her hand up for the job, talked the talk and we are where we are.
If it's not her deal, and it's the EU's deal, then she shouldn't even be presenting it. This deal has been out there a while, and I'd still say it was late.
With Corbyn insisting publicly that no deal be taken off the table and the DUP wanting nothing to do with a no deal, she had fuck all cards to play. Add to that a bunch of fluffybunnies as her “allies”, I’d say she was pretty much hamstrung.It's quite different even 6 months out saying, the EU are pushing this parliament into a no-deal Brexit due to this deal and therefore I must conclude we prepare for that. The EU have shown quite clearly they are dead against no-deal Brexit and hence will have softened.
I agree with this point but the (her?) inability to garner any meaningful support, leaves her a long way up shit creek sans paddle. She’s not done well (understatement alert) but when we’re lining up all the duplicitous and useless fluffybunnies up against the wall to be shot, well we’ll need a bloody long wall.
I think there is one being built just north of Mexico which may work?
So you just apportion blame to May and Brexiters?
I am shocked....No. Not even close to what I said.
Did you name and blame the Remainers?
At no point did I blame anybody on their remain / leave views.
You specifically listed Mogg and Johnson....
and zero remainers.May is a leaver? Wow.
Really.... thats the remainer you come up with?
Not all the hard core ones demanding.a second referendum or revoking article 50?You have proved my point
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
s.Whilst I'm no fan of May and her handling of this issue (and the fucking election) I do think that calling this May's deal is not really the point. This is the EU's deal. She doesn't get to choose what goes in to the deal and what stays out, they do. Some would say that's a good illustration of what is wrong with the EU but in this instance I think it is just negotiating from a strong position. Their strong position is a direct result of our weak position and that is not down to May in the main.
Probably fair, however the timing of all this unfolding is purely down to May, so I'm in no position to be charitable. If this process was where it is right now 6-12 months ago, then thats fine. But not now.
I’m not so sure that it’s purely down to May, sure she’s handled things badly but she has never had a united cabinet behind her, with many flip/flopping around. Not giving her a get out of jail free card but she’s the only one to really stick their head above the parapet and she she looks round for support she sees fuck all.
Of course it's not purely down to May. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and crew should take blame as well for creating such a split down the party. Maybe May felt her only option was to just do what she wanted and that's that.
However, she put her hand up for the job, talked the talk and we are where we are.
If it's not her deal, and it's the EU's deal, then she shouldn't even be presenting it. This deal has been out there a while, and I'd still say it was late.
With Corbyn insisting publicly that no deal be taken off the table and the DUP wanting nothing to do with a no deal, she had fuck all cards to play. Add to that a bunch of fluffybunnies as her “allies”, I’d say she was pretty much hamstrung.It's quite different even 6 months out saying, the EU are pushing this parliament into a no-deal Brexit due to this deal and therefore I must conclude we prepare for that. The EU have shown quite clearly they are dead against no-deal Brexit and hence will have softened.
I agree with this point but the (her?) inability to garner any meaningful support, leaves her a long way up shit creek sans paddle. She’s not done well (understatement alert) but when we’re lining up all the duplicitous and useless fluffybunnies up against the wall to be shot, well we’ll need a bloody long wall.
I think there is one being built just north of Mexico which may work?
So you just apportion blame to May and Brexiters?
I am shocked....No. Not even close to what I said.
Did you name and blame the Remainers?
At no point did I blame anybody on their remain / leave views.
You specifically listed Mogg and Johnson....
and zero remainers.May is a leaver? Wow.
Really.... thats the remainer you come up with?
Not all the hard core ones demanding.a second referendum or revoking article 50?You have proved my point
You have no point. I am literally laughing at your inability to comprehend the argument with your silly little cat and mouse game.
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@Catogrande said in Brexit:
This is going to be interesting though, will they realise that it's just not that easy and go with May's deal, will they go cap in hand to the EU to ask for more time or will we be out of the EU in April with no deal?
It could well be more binary than that - No Deal or No Brexit. Which neatly sums up the aspirations of the cloth-eared tossers at either end of the debate.
I can't think of a better example than Hesetine's comment this morning that "a second referendum will resolve this once and for all". Fark me....talk about divorced from reality.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
This is going to be interesting though, will they realise that it's just not that easy and go with May's deal, will they go cap in hand to the EU to ask for more time or will we be out of the EU in April with no deal?
It could well be more binary than that - No Deal or No Brexit. Which neatly sums up the aspirations of the cloth-eared tossers at either end of the debate.
I can't think of a better example than Hesetine's comment this morning that "a second referendum will resolve this once and for all". Fark me....talk about divorced from reality.
Jacob Rees-Mogg has insinuated that he will now support May's deal. On the basis that it's May's deal or no Brexit.
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Rumours that May will set a resignation date tomorrow as well.
Wither the DUP? There were reports yesterday they'd support the deal if the ERG did.
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@Victor-Meldrew If you had to form a view on recent rumours / facts, it certainly looks that way. Two caveats though
- DUP seem to still be against it, huge sticking point
- Other rumours that Rees Mogg is no longer in synch with much of ERG.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
The thing which gets me is that there's a big prize to be won. A close relationship and FTA with the EU and the ability to be smart and forge deals with the rest of the world - increasingly important as the EU's influence wanes globally.
But no, thinking strategically and sensibly is way too much for our professional politicians
And the ability to avoid destructive immigration policy.
A policy that includes the issue of EU immigrants but is not entirely caused by EU Immigration.
UK Immigration policies themselves account for most of the problems with both net immigration and non EU immigration being higher than EU over each year except one in the last 20.
Polls prior to the suggestion of a Brexit referendum had immigration policy as one of the biggest concerns in the UK. Europe was one of the least concerns. Leave promoters attached themselves to the immigration concerns and pointed the finger squarely at Europe for blame to gain support.
The 'newer' immigrant communities are copping the blame for messy UK policy that goes back decades. Policies in part originating from the days of the Empire. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
The thing which gets me is that there's a big prize to be won. A close relationship and FTA with the EU and the ability to be smart and forge deals with the rest of the world - increasingly important as the EU's influence wanes globally.
But no, thinking strategically and sensibly is way too much for our professional politicians
And the ability to avoid destructive immigration policy.
A policy that includes the issue of EU immigrants but is not entirely caused by EU Immigration.
UK Immigration policies themselves account for most of the problems with both net immigration and non EU immigration being higher than EU over each year except one in the last 20.
Polls prior to the suggestion of a Brexit referendum had immigration policy as one of the biggest concerns in the UK. Europe was one of the least concerns. Leave promoters attached themselves to the immigration concerns and pointed the finger squarely at Europe for blame to gain support.
The 'newer' immigrant communities are copping the blame for messy UK policy that goes back decades. Policies in part originating from the days of the Empire.Usually referred to as The Good Old Days.
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Polls prior to the suggestion of a Brexit referendum had immigration policy as one of the biggest concerns in the UK. Europe was one of the least concerns.
Three points:
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Immigration from Eastern Europe (EU) IS a big, big issue in certain areas (Nth East, Eastern England), particularly as businesses have imported labour from there which has driven down wages,
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Concerns about immigration were immediately labelled as xenophobic or racist (sound familiar?). When you have the UK PM calling someone concerned about the impact of a 40% population increase in 5 yrs (Peterborough) a "bigoted old white woman" you just know you have a bit of a disconnect with the little people and their pesky concerns.
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Those politicians who engaged in 2 (above) were surprised and shocked at the Brexit result...
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
Polls prior to the suggestion of a Brexit referendum had immigration policy as one of the biggest concerns in the UK. Europe was one of the least concerns.
Three points:
-
Immigration from Eastern Europe (EU) IS a big, big issue in certain areas (Nth East, Eastern England), particularly as businesses have imported labour from there which has driven down wages,
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Concerns about immigration were immediately labelled as xenophobic or racist (sound familiar?). When you have the UK PM calling someone concerned about the impact of a 40% population increase in 5 yrs (Peterborough) a "bigoted old white woman" you just know you have a bit of a disconnect with the little people and their pesky concerns.
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Those politicians who engaged in 2 (above) were surprised and shocked at the Brexit result...
- Above. That’s reaching a bit. 2010 election and six years before the referendum, said by a person that had nothing to do with Brexit apart from sniping from the sides. Oh and Rochdale not Peterborough ( although that’s according to the Guardian so could well be a misspelling of Peterborough 🙄).
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
Polls prior to the suggestion of a Brexit referendum had immigration policy as one of the biggest concerns in the UK. Europe was one of the least concerns.
Three points:
-
Immigration from Eastern Europe (EU) IS a big, big issue in certain areas (Nth East, Eastern England), particularly as businesses have imported labour from there which has driven down wages,
-
Concerns about immigration were immediately labelled as xenophobic or racist (sound familiar?). When you have the UK PM calling someone concerned about the impact of a 40% population increase in 5 yrs (Peterborough) a "bigoted old white woman" you just know you have a bit of a disconnect with the little people and their pesky concerns.
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Those politicians who engaged in 2 (above) were surprised and shocked at the Brexit result...
I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the point that membership of EU was not high on the concern of the surveys until the connection between immigration and membership was highlighted.
Separate to that, and something not mentioned by anyone in the posts is that EU immigration is literally only half the immigration problem yet is copping all of the blame.
I get your point about some areas being affected in different ways though. -
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Immigration was a large part of the drive for leaving the EU. There were the very real concerns that many had, there was the xenophobia whipped up by the press, the mis-information peddled (by both sides) and of course an unhealthy dollop of racism. The problem was and still is a refusal to discuss the issue rationally, the smearing by many, of leave voters as being bigoted racists is symptomatic of this problem.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
Oh and Rochdale not Peterborough
My bad.
An insignificant error which I will no doubt bring up at some time in the future in order to destroy an unrelated argument.
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I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the point that membership of EU was not high on the concern of the surveys until the connection between immigration and membership was highlighted.
The EU connection was made in many areas long before the referendum. Not difficult when you have UK companies advertising for workers in Poland and not in the UK. (There was this factory in Cornwall I can tell you about...)
You make a good point about immigration beyond the EU. Being in the EU meaning the UK can only control half of it's immigration policy. Some of smarter commentators (John Harris, Goodhart) have picked up that a key Brexit driver is UK control - people being less concerned about economics than about the UK making it's own decisions
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@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The problem (immigration) was and still is a refusal to discuss the issue rationally,
This. A hundred times
Brexit