Vegas Shooting
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@donsteppa said in Vegas Shooting:
Some interesting countries that the USA is better than...
Amazing how the most brutal nations are on a land bridge to USA. America could confiscate and outlaw the sale of every firearm in the land, but unless you can completely prevent the trade of human trafficking, you're likely going to find the trade of firearms equally difficult to stop, and that's being generous 'cos firearms are easier to smuggle.
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@salacious-crumb if you want to take this quote from the FBI and twist it to fit your theories go ahead but it is pretty clear to me.
Speaking at a news conference, Special Agent in Charge Aaron Rouse said: “As this event unfolds we have determined at this point no connection with an international terrorist group.”
I have tried to bold the relevant part.
This was during the initial press conference naming the gunman. -
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
ISIS putting their hand up to it amounts to diddly squat. I know this, the FBI know this and I'm pretty sure you know this. If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
As someone else said earlier ISIS would claim responsibility for Tom Petty's heart attack if they though it had traction.
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@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Islamic state claims Las Vegas shooting, says attacker recent convert to Islam
by Reuters
Monday, 2 October 2017 14:15 GMTCAIRO, Oct 2 (Reuters) - Islamic State has claimed responsibility for a shooting that killed at least 50 people and wounded over 400 in Las Vegas early on Monday, and said the attacker had converted to Islam a few months ago.
"The Las Vegas attack was carried out by a soldier of the Islamic State and he carried it out in response to calls to target states of the coalition," the group's news agency Amaq said in reference to the U.S.-led coalition fighting the group in the Middle East.
"The Las Vegas attacker converted to Islam a few months ago," Amaq added. (Reporting by Ali Abdelaty; Writing by Arwa Gaballa; Editing by Ahmed Aboulenein)
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@salacious-crumb What they say isn't evidence - not by a long way.
My reference to advertising was meant to convey that the actual guys on the ground advertise their involvement. Not so much the taking of responsibility of ISIS which puts even John Terry to shame.
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@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
ISIS putting their hand up to it amounts to diddly squat. I know this, the FBI know this and I'm pretty sure you know this. If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
As someone else said earlier ISIS would claim responsibility for Tom Petty's heart attack if they though it had traction.
Oh, really? It could be a fiction; but it's also worth investigating, and not dismissing out of hand.
Why Did the Islamic State Claim the Las Vegas Shooting?
Assessing the group’s puzzling statement
"...But already I hear a familiar chorus of doubt: The Islamic State will “take credit for anything,” it says, “even hurricanes.”
The doubters do not have a preponderance of prior examples on their side. The Islamic State does not claim natural disasters.
[...]
If they were really so promiscuous with their claims, we would long since have ignored them, as we do claims from other yahoos who have tried to take credit for atrocities authored by others. The idea that the Islamic State simply scans the news in search of mass killings, then sends out press releases in hope of stealing glory, is false.
[...]
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@Salacious-Crumb so @Catogrande hadn't heard the claims from Daesh. That doesn't make your unfounded assumption of the underlying intent of the FBI any more true.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
ISIS putting their hand up to it amounts to diddly squat. I know this, the FBI know this and I'm pretty sure you know this. If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
As someone else said earlier ISIS would claim responsibility for Tom Petty's heart attack if they though it had traction.
Oh, really? It could be a fiction; but it's also worth investigating, and not dismissing out of hand.
Why Did the Islamic State Claim the Las Vegas Shooting?
Assessing the group’s puzzling statement
"...But already I hear a familiar chorus of doubt: The Islamic State will “take credit for anything,” it says, “even hurricanes.”
The doubters do not have a preponderance of prior examples on their side. The Islamic State does not claim natural disasters.
[...]
If they were really so promiscuous with their claims, we would long since have ignored them, as we do claims from other yahoos who have tried to take credit for atrocities authored by others. The idea that the Islamic State simply scans the news in search of mass killings, then sends out press releases in hope of stealing glory, is false.
[...]
It may pay to read that article to its conclusion.
As the facts emerge, we’ll see whether this killing spree ends up reminding us to take Amaq seriously, or demonstrating that its standards have slipped beyond recovery.
Other analysts have interpreted any claim of involvement by ISIS as a sign of desperation due to their ever decreasing caliphate. Trying to create or encourage the use of their name as an attachment to any terror inducing act.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
ISIS putting their hand up to it amounts to diddly squat. I know this, the FBI know this and I'm pretty sure you know this. If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
As someone else said earlier ISIS would claim responsibility for Tom Petty's heart attack if they though it had traction.
Oh, really? It could be a fiction; but it's also worth investigating, and not dismissing out of hand.
Why Did the Islamic State Claim the Las Vegas Shooting?
Assessing the group’s puzzling statement
"...But already I hear a familiar chorus of doubt: The Islamic State will “take credit for anything,” it says, “even hurricanes.”
The doubters do not have a preponderance of prior examples on their side. The Islamic State does not claim natural disasters.
[...]
If they were really so promiscuous with their claims, we would long since have ignored them, as we do claims from other yahoos who have tried to take credit for atrocities authored by others. The idea that the Islamic State simply scans the news in search of mass killings, then sends out press releases in hope of stealing glory, is false.
[...]
OK let me requote the salient part (in that it relates to your argument) from my earlier post.
If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@donsteppa said in Vegas Shooting:
Some interesting countries that the USA is better than...
Amazing how the most brutal nations are on a land bridge to USA. America could confiscate and outlaw the sale of every firearm in the land, but unless you can completely prevent the trade of human trafficking, you're likely going to find the trade of firearms equally difficult to stop, and that's being generous 'cos firearms are easier to smuggle.
Given the USA is the largest arms exporter in the world, perhaps the flow goes the other way.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@nta said in Vegas Shooting:
@dogmeat does it depend whether we're talking "shooting" versus "mass shooting" though?
Its pretty fucking sad when your murder by gun rate is the lowest its been, and you're still seeing thousands per year.
Chicago -- the gun-free zone -- accounts for over 4,000 shooting incidents last year alone with almost 800 fatalities. That's one city -- a "gun-free zone" -- with a population smaller than NZ. More Chicagoans haved died by firearms in their "gun-free zone" over the past 15 years than American GIs haved died in Iraq over same period.
The point being? Murcka is a fucked up society and they shouldn't try and fix gun culture?
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this whole gun control vs gun culture thing is such a load of shit. they are effectively the same thing.
if you have a tight control of gun sales, ownership, carrying, use, then what follows?
if you have guns everywhere, all sort of guns, gun shows, shops selling them everywhere, people carrying them in public, every household having one - then is that a gun control issue or a gun culture issue?
it's just a red herring from those who don't want gun control.so too the 'ship has sailed' brigade. something is so wrong that there is no point trying to do anything about it. that's just fucken pathetic.
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Ok well I'm failing at sharing a link from FB. But this is from Brendan O'neill.
The Left 6 months ago: "America is becoming a fascist state, the likes of which we haven't seen since the 1930's"
The Left today: "America give up all of your weapons to the state!"
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@reprobate said in Vegas Shooting:
this whole gun control vs gun culture thing is such a load of shit. they are effectively the same thing.
if you have a tight control of gun sales, ownership, carrying, use, then what follows?
if you have guns everywhere, all sort of guns, gun shows, shops selling them everywhere, people carrying them in public, every household having one - then is that a gun control issue or a gun culture issue?
it's just a red herring from those who don't want gun control.so too the 'ship has sailed' brigade. something is so wrong that there is no point trying to do anything about it. that's just fucken pathetic.
The point is it's not purely about laws. Tightening up laws where possible would be a step in the right direction, but it's not even close to being the silver bullet for this problem. And it won't stop people committing mass shootings like this one (in that I mean someone trying to kill as many innocent strangers as possible). All of the "mass shooting" stats I see include things like gang warfare etc - that's a culture problem, not a lack of enough laws.
The States has a pretty unique history, and the right to bear arms is actually written into their constituion as a result. The military is at the forefront of everything they do. Those two things are synonymous with the USA.
Clearly gun control and gun culture go hand in hand, but they are not the same thing. Good luck trying to take away something people already have by changing a couple of laws. It's much easier to give people something then it is to take it away, and people won't be keen to give up their guns in a hurry - that's going to take a massive culture shift.
Laws don't fix everything, in fact they can often make the situation worse when things go to the black market instead of having any kind of regulation.
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@no-quarter The NRA changed the way the 2nd amendment is interpreted. It can be changed back, but it would take a massive effort at administrative level to do it. Sadly the gun lobby have the US government in its pocket and I don't see it happening anytime soon
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@reprobate said in Vegas Shooting:
this whole gun control vs gun culture thing is such a load of shit. they are effectively the same thing.
if you have a tight control of gun sales, ownership, carrying, use, then what follows?
if you have guns everywhere, all sort of guns, gun shows, shops selling them everywhere, people carrying them in public, every household having one - then is that a gun control issue or a gun culture issue?
it's just a red herring from those who don't want gun control.so too the 'ship has sailed' brigade. something is so wrong that there is no point trying to do anything about it. that's just fucken pathetic.
Well feel free to offer some expert advice on how to fix the problem? As has been mentioned, some of the worst crime areas have the strictest gun laws. There are 300 million plus guns in circulation. Please enlighten us on how you would fix that situation.
There's a difference between how you would like a situation to be and what is in fact the brutal reality. That's where the ship has sailed argument comes in. Nothing to do with not wanting a solution, but taking a realistic approach to a situation that is beyond fucked.
But again, feel free to offer some viable solutions.
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@no-quarter said in Vegas Shooting:
@reprobate said in Vegas Shooting:
this whole gun control vs gun culture thing is such a load of shit. they are effectively the same thing.
if you have a tight control of gun sales, ownership, carrying, use, then what follows?
if you have guns everywhere, all sort of guns, gun shows, shops selling them everywhere, people carrying them in public, every household having one - then is that a gun control issue or a gun culture issue?
it's just a red herring from those who don't want gun control.so too the 'ship has sailed' brigade. something is so wrong that there is no point trying to do anything about it. that's just fucken pathetic.
The point is it's not purely about laws. Tightening up laws where possible would be a step in the right direction, but it's not even close to being the silver bullet for this problem. And it won't stop people committing mass shootings (in that I mean someone trying to kill as many innocent strangers as possible). All of the "mass shooting" stats I see include things like gang warfare etc - that's a culture problem, not a lack of enough laws.
The States has a pretty unique history, and the right to bear arms is actually written into their constituion as a result. The military is at the forefront of everything they do. Those two things are synonymous with the USA.
Clearly gun control and gun culture go hand in hand, but they are not the same thing. Good luck trying to take away something people already have by changing a couple of laws. It's much easier to give people something then it is to take it away, and people won't be keen to give up their guns in a hurry - that's going to take a massive culture shift.
Laws don't fix everything, in fact they can often make the situation worse when things go to the black market instead of having any kind of regulation.
obviously it's not a silver bullet. change takes time. it's pretty obviously a worthwhile change and a direction worth moving in. i don't think you really believe that more control will make it worse?
making guns less accessible, particularly auto / semi-auto absolutely will reduce mass shootings. of course it won't stop all of them, that's why they still happen in other places too. but the situation where someone just loses their shit and goes on a rampage is a whole lot less damaging if what he has at hand is a baseball bat.
it will reduce suicides.
it will reduce accidental deaths. fucking toddlers shooting each other.
it will reduce 'anger' murders.just because it isn't going to be 'oh well that's that solved', doesn't mean you don't do it.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Vegas Shooting:
@reprobate said in Vegas Shooting:
this whole gun control vs gun culture thing is such a load of shit. they are effectively the same thing.
if you have a tight control of gun sales, ownership, carrying, use, then what follows?
if you have guns everywhere, all sort of guns, gun shows, shops selling them everywhere, people carrying them in public, every household having one - then is that a gun control issue or a gun culture issue?
it's just a red herring from those who don't want gun control.so too the 'ship has sailed' brigade. something is so wrong that there is no point trying to do anything about it. that's just fucken pathetic.
Well feel free to offer some expert advice on how to fix the problem? As has been mentioned, some of the worst crime areas have the strictest gun laws. There are 300 million plus guns in circulation. Please enlighten us on how you would fix that situation.
There's a difference between how you would like a situation to be and what is in fact the brutal reality. That's where the ship has sailed argument comes in. Nothing to do with not wanting a solution, but taking a realistic approach to a situation that is beyond fucked.
But again, feel free to offer some viable solutions.
people saying 'but murders in cities with gun control, chicago!'. a city?
any solution needs to be nationwide.
stop selling them. make owning them without a permit illegal. strict sentencing for possession. make it a police priority. give the police the ability to search people - for guns only.
publicise the shit out of this, then offer an amnesty and buy-back.of course this isn't going to just solve the problem, nothing is - but it would greatly slow the influx of new guns, and instantly get a shitload off the street. then over time, with people getting used to stricter control, the culture will shift in the right direction.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
Chicago -- the gun-free zone -- accounts for over 4,000 shooting incidents last year alone with almost 800 fatalities. That's one city -- a "gun-free zone" -- with a population smaller than NZ. More Chicagoans haved died by firearms in their "gun-free zone" over the past 15 years than American GIs haved died in Iraq over same period.
Maybe they should build a wall around Chicago and search everything going in and out?
You know, from the surrounding areas where you can buy a gun at Walmart.
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@nta said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
Chicago -- the gun-free zone -- accounts for over 4,000 shooting incidents last year alone with almost 800 fatalities. That's one city -- a "gun-free zone" -- with a population smaller than NZ. More Chicagoans haved died by firearms in their "gun-free zone" over the past 15 years than American GIs haved died in Iraq over same period.
Maybe they should build a wall around Chicago and search everything going in and out?
You know, from the surrounding areas where you can buy a gun at Walmart.
ah you just want more of the donald's solar-power generating walls nick.
bloody hippies.