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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Another attack in London:
@Duluth said in Another attack in London:
@taniwharugby said in Another attack in London:
Is the fact that there are several threads that have the same theme running through them...Islam and Trump seen to play a big role in a few of them.
I think the Trump stuff should be kept to the US politics thread as much as possible
As for Islam it is directly related to this topic.
Several threads that touch on Islam? What are they?
- The religion , morality pc thread. That seems valid
- The US politics thread, particularly when the President was visiting the middle east discussing policy. Yup valid
- Multiple islamic terrorism threads. Once again it's clearly valid
I don't see the problem?
If you don't want to discuss it, don't post in the thread(s). If you don't want to read it don't open the thread(s)
Exactly. If people aren't interested/don't like these discussions then go to the multiple other threads available. Getting pissed off that Islam is discussed on a thread devoted solely to a terrorist attack by Muslim extremists is just weird. Seriously, what is it that makes people so damn squeamish about discussing this? Nobody batters a fucking eyelid when other religions are discussed.
I think it bizarre people complain about multiple threads about Islamic terror attacks more than they complain about the reason there are so many new threads. They are new topics for new attacks.
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@taniwharugby said in Another attack in London:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback yeah cos a small number of people on TSF discussing these issues over and over will solve the worlds problems....
Don't want to pick on you TR as I respect you as a poster here, but this attitude is exactly why we aren't getting anywhere. Discussing issues over and over is exactly how world problems get solved. That's why I really encourage anyone I talk to about this to educate themselves as much as possible, and don't be afraid to debate it. I can't stress the importance of that enough - it's critical to finding the best solution to this because as you say, when we reach the point of someone ploughing their Van through a crowd of people (because they believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife) there's fuck all Police can do to stop them.
And as @Rembrandt says, discussions here lead to discussions with other people, which leads to discussions with more people. Given how interconnected humans are you are only really a few people away from reaching thousands. Right now we are battling a PC culture that shuts down discussing issues in an open and honest way, so I really value this forum.
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for the record, I do avoid most of the other threads I mentioned as it is just the same stuff said over and over by the same people, so I guess sadly this will be another that I add to my ignore list.
@No-Quarter as I said above, I never said not to discuss it, just I get fed up of entering threads I have an interest in contributing and seeing the same things I see in other threads I no longer pay much attention too.
We should all change our FB pics though, cos that wil have the same impact as the arguments here.
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@taniwharugby I think you're missing my point, but fair enough if you'd rather ignore the problem. I've always been interested in world affairs, and I'm also a British citizen with plans to move over in the next few years so I have a very keen interest in developments.
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@No-Quarter not sure what point I am missing...did I say I ignore the problem? no you have assumed it because I dont wanna bang on about it adnauseum.
BTW, my wife is English, I have inlaws and friends there, so it is a big deal to me too.
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@taniwharugby that's an incredible stance to take about such a serious, complex and ongoing issue. Agree to disagree!
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@taniwharugby said in Another attack in London:
@No-Quarter not sure what point I am missing...did I say I ignore the problem? no you have assumed it because I dont wanna bang on about it adnauseum.
BTW, my wife is English, I have inlaws and friends there, so it is a big deal to me.
I think discussing it amongst friends here, some with different ways of looking at things, is a good way to deal with the frustration of attack after attack from Islamic terrorists and inaction from our leaders.
Obama wouldn't even say the words Islamic Terrorism, that's how far down the appeasement path we are.
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@No-Quarter er ok...my stance, not sure what you are even on about now man!
Yes @Kirwan there are plenty here I consider friends, I do like a good discussion, some threads I read but dont contribute, but I also discuss things in RL too...anywhoo, think I have diverted this thread enough now.
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@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
I don't care nor think about it as it doesn't affect how I go about my life.
I am interested in the going ons of the separate attacks etc. But the threads just deteriorate into peoples opions on islam and they are exactly the same threads we see over and over again and end up beig who can shout the loudest
Turns out one of the victims is a kiwi. .. so you might be effected after all. Know anyone in London from Christchurch?
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Seems to be this is a kind massive "scared of offending" pattern. Us "westerners" are afraid of being labelled racists and "normal" Muslims are afraid of slandering the religion that is such an important part of their lives. The result is industrial grade deflection and denial, e.g. lone wolf, nothing to do with Islam, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. etc. I mean publishing cartoons shouldn't even be an issue in our societies, but it is.
I won't even pretend to know what the silver bullet is, but I do know that pretending there isn't a problem with the religion fostering this shit isn't helping. Nor does it help to make the absurd claim that other religions are just as bad.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel I fully agree with your first part, denial is rife and the first step has to be a willingness to confront the issue and we see precious little will in this regard.
I have a degree of sympathy for your second part but it does not sit well with me that the alternative to not confronting the issue is to blanket blame an entire religion or section of society (I'm not totally sure that is what you're saying, but I'm not sure it isn't either). You're right in saying that other religions are just as bad is of no help but (on here at least) I don't think that is what many people have said. What has been said is that there are some odious comparisons from the OT and the Q'uran but that most Christians do not take this literally and nor do most Muslims. Also that Christianity as a whole has moved away from literal interpretation and in most instances so has Islam.
The very real problem is the significant minority of Muslims that do profess to adhere to the literal interpretation and then spread this insanity. A willingness to openly confront this problem, from both Muslims and non-Muslims has to be the way to at least start to solve the problem.
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@Catogrande said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel I fully agree with your first part, denial is rife and the first step has to be a willingness to confront the issue and we see precious little will in this regard.
I have a degree of sympathy for your second part but it does not sit well with me that the alternative to not confronting the issue is to blanket blame an entire religion or section of society (I'm not totally sure that is what you're saying, but I'm not sure it isn't either). You're right in saying that other religions are just as bad is of no help but (on here at least) I don't think that is what many people have said. What has been said is that there are some odious comparisons from the OT and the Q'uran but that most Christians do not take this literally and nor do most Muslims. Also that Christianity as a whole has moved away from literal interpretation and in most instances so has Islam.
The very real problem is the significant minority of Muslims that do profess to adhere to the literal interpretation and then spread this insanity. A willingness to openly confront this problem, from both Muslims and non-Muslims has to be the way to at least start to solve the problem.
That's the longer, more refined version of what I was trying to say Cato
However, I disagree that comparisons with other religions are not common.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Another attack in London:
@Catogrande said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel I fully agree with your first part, denial is rife and the first step has to be a willingness to confront the issue and we see precious little will in this regard.
I have a degree of sympathy for your second part but it does not sit well with me that the alternative to not confronting the issue is to blanket blame an entire religion or section of society (I'm not totally sure that is what you're saying, but I'm not sure it isn't either). You're right in saying that other religions are just as bad is of no help but (on here at least) I don't think that is what many people have said. What has been said is that there are some odious comparisons from the OT and the Q'uran but that most Christians do not take this literally and nor do most Muslims. Also that Christianity as a whole has moved away from literal interpretation and in most instances so has Islam.
The very real problem is the significant minority of Muslims that do profess to adhere to the literal interpretation and then spread this insanity. A willingness to openly confront this problem, from both Muslims and non-Muslims has to be the way to at least start to solve the problem.
That's the longer, more refined version of what I was trying to say Cato
However, I disagree that comparisons with other religions are not common.
That's often the problem with the lack of context and emphasis in the (hastily) written word. We can all see different things within it.
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@Catogrande said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel I fully agree with your first part, denial is rife and the first step has to be a willingness to confront the issue and we see precious little will in this regard.
I have a degree of sympathy for your second part but it does not sit well with me that the alternative to not confronting the issue is to blanket blame an entire religion or section of society (I'm not totally sure that is what you're saying, but I'm not sure it isn't either). You're right in saying that other religions are just as bad is of no help but (on here at least) I don't think that is what many people have said. What has been said is that there are some odious comparisons from the OT and the Q'uran but that most Christians do not take this literally and nor do most Muslims. Also that Christianity as a whole has moved away from literal interpretation and in most instances so has Islam.
The very real problem is the significant minority of Muslims that do profess to adhere to the literal interpretation and then spread this insanity. A willingness to openly confront this problem, from both Muslims and non-Muslims has to be the way to at least start to solve the problem.
Increasingly people are realising there is not an easy answer or silver bullet. The least shite solution is the best solution. And to me a shite, but least shite solution is actually dealing with an entire religion as you cannot deal with only part of it.
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Thankfully the Cantabrian is going to pull through
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/93335859/kiwi-stabbed-in-london-terror-attacks -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Catogrande said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel I fully agree with your first part, denial is rife and the first step has to be a willingness to confront the issue and we see precious little will in this regard.
I have a degree of sympathy for your second part but it does not sit well with me that the alternative to not confronting the issue is to blanket blame an entire religion or section of society (I'm not totally sure that is what you're saying, but I'm not sure it isn't either). You're right in saying that other religions are just as bad is of no help but (on here at least) I don't think that is what many people have said. What has been said is that there are some odious comparisons from the OT and the Q'uran but that most Christians do not take this literally and nor do most Muslims. Also that Christianity as a whole has moved away from literal interpretation and in most instances so has Islam.
The very real problem is the significant minority of Muslims that do profess to adhere to the literal interpretation and then spread this insanity. A willingness to openly confront this problem, from both Muslims and non-Muslims has to be the way to at least start to solve the problem.
Increasingly people are realising there is not an easy answer or silver bullet. The least shite solution is the best solution. And to me a shite, but least shite solution is actually dealing with an entire religion as you cannot deal with only part of it.
I can understand that point of view but I just don't think it is anywhere near viable. We, Western type democracies, need to have the sane majority of Muslims inside our tent pissing out rather than outside and pissing in. Try and deal with an entire religion (how do you even do that) and you will alienate huge numbers of people, likely making the situation a whole lot worse.
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@JC said in Another attack in London:
@taniwharugby Yeah, I guess that's my fault. I could have left out the original lone wolf reference. Sorry about that.
Not sure that was directly responsible JC ...
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@Catogrande said in Another attack in London:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Catogrande said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel I fully agree with your first part, denial is rife and the first step has to be a willingness to confront the issue and we see precious little will in this regard.
I have a degree of sympathy for your second part but it does not sit well with me that the alternative to not confronting the issue is to blanket blame an entire religion or section of society (I'm not totally sure that is what you're saying, but I'm not sure it isn't either). You're right in saying that other religions are just as bad is of no help but (on here at least) I don't think that is what many people have said. What has been said is that there are some odious comparisons from the OT and the Q'uran but that most Christians do not take this literally and nor do most Muslims. Also that Christianity as a whole has moved away from literal interpretation and in most instances so has Islam.
The very real problem is the significant minority of Muslims that do profess to adhere to the literal interpretation and then spread this insanity. A willingness to openly confront this problem, from both Muslims and non-Muslims has to be the way to at least start to solve the problem.
Increasingly people are realising there is not an easy answer or silver bullet. The least shite solution is the best solution. And to me a shite, but least shite solution is actually dealing with an entire religion as you cannot deal with only part of it.
I can understand that point of view but I just don't think it is anywhere near viable. We, Western type democracies, need to have the sane majority of Muslims inside our tent pissing out rather than outside and pissing in. Try and deal with an entire religion (how do you even do that) and you will alienate huge numbers of people, likely making the situation a whole lot worse.
It's a tough one, as it's becoming increasingly difficult to separate them out. I expressed my frustration in the other thread when I saw a young Muslim woman hit right at the heart of the issue, only for two other 'moderate' Muslims to either lie about what was happening, or completely obfuscate her point to avoid addressing it.
I also wonder when people like @Godder talk about 'mainstream' Islam what they mean exactly - Muslims in the west or Muslims in, say, Saudi Arabia?
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Certainly no easy answers. All I know is not talking about it has and will continue to fail. Proper investigations into Mosques linked with extremism and extremist speakers would be a great start particularly those financed by Saudi. Removing laws against 'Offending' people such as Australias 18C, as this simply shuts down discussion since anyone can be offended by anything. Reviewing immigration and travel to and from countries associated with terrorism. Proper reviews into prisons and the islamic extremism being propagated there. Crack down on those on existing watchlists.
As for what we can do now. Talk with people about the issue, give them your perspective. Ask your political parties how they intend to deal with the problem. Find out about groups that make a stand against extremism (Quillam, Q Society), maybe join them and participate in discussions or donate to their cause. Publicly support those who do make a stand. Read the Qu'ran, hone your arguments and challenge those with differing views. Make a loud noise when leftists start trying to implement motions or policies to protect these extremists like Canada's M-103. Don't be afraid to use the word 'Islamic' when talking about islamic extremism. They are inexorably linked.
Another attack in London