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@Rembrandt Yep, you're right. I have to remind people in my circles that not all Trump supporters are racists. Im not even sure Trump is a racist, I think he just says shit (or not says stuff) that he thinks will poll well with his support... but maybe I need to revisit that line of thinking as he is polling terribly.
I dont agree with everything that you have posted but there's plenty there that I do agree with. The media does twist things and taking them at their word without validating their claims is dangerous. I've seen the clips of Trump where the press go to town on him for something ridiculous - I dont know why they do it, he already gives them plenty of bonafide material.
Cheers mate 👍 -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@phoenetia said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@phoenetia said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@phoenetia They've put the blanket title of 'alt-right' or 'far right' onto anyone who doesn't follow leftist ideology. From Charlottesville Alt-right is now murderous nazism. This really scares me.
I dont see people calling Conservatives the alt-right however I feel that Conservatives aren't quite as vocal with their condemnation of the Alt Right as they should be and thats been my view on this forum too. Ive seen Alt Right points/memes parroted here before (not the racist variety) however I struggle to recall any Right leaning folk here ever calling out the Alt Right on their more offensive positions (thats not to say its never happened, I've just not seen it when I've been browsing here). Because of that, I tend towards thinking that most RW folk are ok with the Alt Right because I see more agreement rather than condemnation for them.
I can see where your concerns stem from and how you may feel a target because of others whose beliefs you dont share.
It sounds similar to the fear of many on the left who feel that Charlottesville is evidence of emboldened White Supremacists rising up and that the presidents failure to call it out adequately will result in it growing in popularity.
The next conflict between the Far Left and the Far Right will be very violent. There are thugs in the ANTIFA who seem to be spoiling for a fight; Charlottesville was a clear display of presence and firepower from the White Supremacists and no doubt ANTIFA will want to knock them down a number of pegs. What follows is going to be ugly and bloody.I think ANTIFA will be even more emboldened. The media and politicians have basically said they can do whatever they want because. .. Nazis .
It is bloody retarded to think peace and unity will be achieved by only blaming one side.
As for us defending the alt right. I don't even know who that is supposed to be. Seems to be whoever disagrees with the left. As for "offensive positions" ...offensive according to who? Are you going to start calling out over the positions the neo Marxists have ' that others might find "offensive"?ANTIFA has always considered themselves justified in their actions - from their perspective, they're fighting the fascists and racists. When it comes to NeoNazis / White Supremacists, its very much about not being silent like what happened in Germany as Nazism rose to prominence.
Offensive = racist.
Like I said before, it isn't everyone who disagrees with the left but if one is parroting their talking points and memes in the same vocabulary, well, one might find themselves mistaken for an alt righter(?).
Who are the Neo Marxists? Are they the same as Cultural Marxists? Are they all Alt Left? Ive never even heard of anyone identifying as Neo Marxist. Please let me know if I should be triggeredHang on.. how does it matter how ANTIFA see themselves? I am sure the White Nationalists see themselves as fighting evil as well. ANTIFA are fascists. They are petty much carbon copies of Hitlers crew.
As for offensive equaling racism? Fair enough.. but a couple of questions.. do you believe people can be racist towards whites? And why stop at skin colour.. why not find it offensive when you assess and judge people based on immutable traits.. i.e identity politics.. which is now the default position of the left.
You have never heard of anyone identifying as neo Marxist? I have. I havent heard of people identifying as alt right either, I mainly hear people being labelled as alt right.
And you still havent really clarified what the alt right is.ANTIFA are AntiFascists, I know you know that. One can claim to be antifascist and not be ostracized, the same cannot be said of White Supremacists. People will openly support those who stick up for minorities. They dont tend to do so for White Supremacists.
How do you arrive at ANTIFA being carbon copies of Hitlers crew?
Yes, racism against whites is possible.
Its the historical legacy of racism and the shame thats attached to it that makes it so combustible compared to other forms of discrimination. -
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@phoenetia said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@phoenetia said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@phoenetia They've put the blanket title of 'alt-right' or 'far right' onto anyone who doesn't follow leftist ideology. From Charlottesville Alt-right is now murderous nazism. This really scares me.
I dont see people calling Conservatives the alt-right however I feel that Conservatives aren't quite as vocal with their condemnation of the Alt Right as they should be and thats been my view on this forum too. Ive seen Alt Right points/memes parroted here before (not the racist variety) however I struggle to recall any Right leaning folk here ever calling out the Alt Right on their more offensive positions (thats not to say its never happened, I've just not seen it when I've been browsing here). Because of that, I tend towards thinking that most RW folk are ok with the Alt Right because I see more agreement rather than condemnation for them.
I can see where your concerns stem from and how you may feel a target because of others whose beliefs you dont share.
It sounds similar to the fear of many on the left who feel that Charlottesville is evidence of emboldened White Supremacists rising up and that the presidents failure to call it out adequately will result in it growing in popularity.
The next conflict between the Far Left and the Far Right will be very violent. There are thugs in the ANTIFA who seem to be spoiling for a fight; Charlottesville was a clear display of presence and firepower from the White Supremacists and no doubt ANTIFA will want to knock them down a number of pegs. What follows is going to be ugly and bloody.What is the Alt-right and what non-racist Alt-right views have you seen parroted here? This seems to be absurd as labelling someone a communist because they believe in workers rights. But communists believe that too right?
It sounds similar to the fear of many on the left who feel that Charlottesville is evidence of emboldened White Supremacists rising up and that the presidents failure to call it out adequately will result in it growing in popularity.italicised text
This is just ridiculous. There were what, a couple of hundred people at that rally. And this is enough to trigger fear of an emboldened White Supremacist movement? There are probably more people in the US speaking Klingon. Get a grip.
Its the Breitbart articles and shitty 4chan-esque memes, the Regressive Left this, Gender Politics that, yay Bannon, yay Milo, boo MultiCulturalism, boo Islam, Cultural Marxist blather. Honestly, I thought some of you guys were alt-right so I'm more than happy to have you put your foot down and say it aint so.
If someone was in here espousing commie values, posting commie memes and sharing links from commie news sites - perhaps you might be right to suspect they are indeed a commie (but obviously not off one shared value as per your point).How many White Supremacists would you be comfortable with marching around in your town with torches chanting anti semitic racist crud bearing machine guns ? Even 1 is too many for my liking. For folk in America, this happened in their country. Americans are concerned this could happen in their town because it has already happened in an American town. The President failed to send a message that this shit is not on so I suspect that will motivate a large response from minorities and their supporters to ensure the White Supremacists get that message.
I will ask again. Who or what is the Alt-right? Lumping Spencer together with someone like Milo is utterly ridiculous. Indeed lumping a media outlet formed by Jews and run by Jews (Breitart) is even more ridiculous. The opposite of that is everyone on the left being labelled a communist for espousing leftist talking-points. Do you not see how absurd and narrow-minded that is?
I don't care if a couple of hundred losers in a nation of 300 million decide to play "Triumph of the Wills". In fact, their pitiful number should be a clue that their influence is absolutely insignificant and rather than growing is at an all time low. Sure I'd like to see all white supremacism eradicated, but it's tin-foil territory to claim that there is some massive surge in their numbers or that they represent a threat to the US.
The rise in identity politics and cultural Marxism that you so casually dismiss as being the bastion of those horrible creatures of the alt-right like Jordan Pedersen are far bigger threats to the social fabric of the US than a few losers with tiki torches.
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@phoenetia said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@phoenetia said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@phoenetia said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@phoenetia They've put the blanket title of 'alt-right' or 'far right' onto anyone who doesn't follow leftist ideology. From Charlottesville Alt-right is now murderous nazism. This really scares me.
I dont see people calling Conservatives the alt-right however I feel that Conservatives aren't quite as vocal with their condemnation of the Alt Right as they should be and thats been my view on this forum too. Ive seen Alt Right points/memes parroted here before (not the racist variety) however I struggle to recall any Right leaning folk here ever calling out the Alt Right on their more offensive positions (thats not to say its never happened, I've just not seen it when I've been browsing here). Because of that, I tend towards thinking that most RW folk are ok with the Alt Right because I see more agreement rather than condemnation for them.
I can see where your concerns stem from and how you may feel a target because of others whose beliefs you dont share.
It sounds similar to the fear of many on the left who feel that Charlottesville is evidence of emboldened White Supremacists rising up and that the presidents failure to call it out adequately will result in it growing in popularity.
The next conflict between the Far Left and the Far Right will be very violent. There are thugs in the ANTIFA who seem to be spoiling for a fight; Charlottesville was a clear display of presence and firepower from the White Supremacists and no doubt ANTIFA will want to knock them down a number of pegs. What follows is going to be ugly and bloody.I think ANTIFA will be even more emboldened. The media and politicians have basically said they can do whatever they want because. .. Nazis .
It is bloody retarded to think peace and unity will be achieved by only blaming one side.
As for us defending the alt right. I don't even know who that is supposed to be. Seems to be whoever disagrees with the left. As for "offensive positions" ...offensive according to who? Are you going to start calling out over the positions the neo Marxists have ' that others might find "offensive"?ANTIFA has always considered themselves justified in their actions - from their perspective, they're fighting the fascists and racists. When it comes to NeoNazis / White Supremacists, its very much about not being silent like what happened in Germany as Nazism rose to prominence.
Offensive = racist.
Like I said before, it isn't everyone who disagrees with the left but if one is parroting their talking points and memes in the same vocabulary, well, one might find themselves mistaken for an alt righter(?).
Who are the Neo Marxists? Are they the same as Cultural Marxists? Are they all Alt Left? Ive never even heard of anyone identifying as Neo Marxist. Please let me know if I should be triggeredHang on.. how does it matter how ANTIFA see themselves? I am sure the White Nationalists see themselves as fighting evil as well. ANTIFA are fascists. They are petty much carbon copies of Hitlers crew.
As for offensive equaling racism? Fair enough.. but a couple of questions.. do you believe people can be racist towards whites? And why stop at skin colour.. why not find it offensive when you assess and judge people based on immutable traits.. i.e identity politics.. which is now the default position of the left.
You have never heard of anyone identifying as neo Marxist? I have. I havent heard of people identifying as alt right either, I mainly hear people being labelled as alt right.
And you still havent really clarified what the alt right is.ANTIFA are AntiFascists, I know you know that. One can claim to be antifascist and not be ostracized, the same cannot be said of White Supremacists. People will openly support those who stick up for minorities. They dont tend to do so for White Supremacists.
How do you arrive at ANTIFA being carbon copies of Hitlers crew?
Yes, racism against whites is possible.
Its the historical legacy of racism and the shame thats attached to it that makes it so combustible compared to other forms of discrimination.Of course i know what they claim to be. Doesn't mean a damn thing.They are fascists. Since when does naming yourself something make you that? If the KKK rename themseles as African American Support League... does that change what and who they are??
Do you really want me to show it?http://www.dailywire.com/news/19717/7-things-you-need-know-about-antifa-michael-qazvini#exit-modal
ANTIFA are more dangerous than the White Supremacist movement (in potential not ideology). White Supremacist arent getting anywhere, ANTIFA are getting legitimized and open ticket for violence and suppression of free speech.
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Trump is 100% correct here in his comments about Charlottesville.
Seriously fuck the mainstream media who are trying to sell this as him defending neo-nazis.They are creating an incredibly dangerous situation by trying to justify Antifa's actions.
I had just read (hugely negative) reports and seen edited footage and thought that the stupid prick had put his foot in it again. I refer in particular to the "fine people" comment which was a WTF moment. But watching the full presser you can clearly see what he was trying to say and how the media were having none of it. One guy even asked him if he supported the Confederacy. If he's a disgrace to the presidency he's in good company, because they're a disgrace to journalism.
It would be worth seeing him win 2020 just to see this gaggle of dickheads lose their shit once again.
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I think Trumps use of the phrase 'alt left' is going to get used more and more as well. Will be equally vacuous and meaninglessly generic, but it will be very effective.
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Charlottesville comments seem to be here, so:
How about this for a bad weekend?
As a rule, I mostly follow Popper's paradox of tolerance before Rawl's (who I mostly identify with more strongly), so I'm kind of down with identifying white nationalists who were marching. However, one dangerous part of that nowadays is people calling out intolerant individuals - who weren't there.
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@gt12 said in US Politics:
Popper's paradox of tolerance
relies on a logical fallacy; begging the question.
If there's one thing I've noticed about "progressives", they're raving hypocrites. That's the greatest crime in my opinion.
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Watching that press conference, what the hell happened to the respecting the office of the President? He was asked questions and had reporters interrupting him and yelling over top of the answers!
It was nuts. And you can see the gotcha questions trying to get quotes for already written stories "Trump supports the Confederacy", etc.
No wonder they get called fake news.
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While I'd like these guys to be raped with dark black, razor sharp dildos while watching footage of MLK, I'm not sure destroying their lives and driving them underground is the best response. Better to be able to observe and keep tabs on the freak show and their antics. Engaging with them might even turn some of them around. They have zero power, zero influence and if it wasn't for social media would be effectively invisible. Jerry Springer used these guys as comic relief back in the day.
I would much rather have the odd pitiful IloveAdolf show than risk another Breivik. That it something to truly fear. As are people like the Islamic extremist who killed more than a dozen people in Barcelona this morning. Incredibly enough Wolf Blitzer on CNN called it a Charlottesville copycat attack. Get your head around that.
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@Kirwan I laughed out loud when he flat out called a reporter 'fake news'.
I wrote a little about the presser on facebook along with the video of the whole Q&A session yet somehow people are still telling me that Trump was defending the neo-Nazis. Is it so hard to actually watch the source footage and make your own mind up? I wonder if people will ever break out of this ridiculous idea that mainstream media only report the truth. -
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Apparently Schwartz (his ghost for "The art of the deal") is now sticking the knife in. On Twitter he reckons Trump will resign by the fall.
I don't know what disturbs me more, the sheer amount of nobodies that are getting their fifteen minutes of fame either lauding or vilifying Trump or the fact that he has associated with so many of these leeches over the years.
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
Apparently Schwartz (his ghost for "The art of the deal") is now sticking the knife in. On Twitter he reckons Trump will resign by the fall.
I don't know what disturbs me more, the sheer amount of nobodies that are getting their fifteen minutes of fame either lauding or vilifying Trump or the fact that he has associated with so many of these leeches over the years.
Schwartz has been sticking the knife in and saying the same things for a year. (And really, when you think about it, the tv-talker producers haven't called this guy in years & decades, and now he knows a sure-fire ticket to tv-land is to give those producers exactly what they crave -- hit pieces on Trump -- so he provides it for them. If he had nice positive things to say about the President, they wouldn't book him, they'd book somebody else who would provide them the narrative they want.)
It's always peak-Trump with these clowns. Any minute now he's gonna quit; any minute now he's going to be impeached... complete mass hysteria.
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the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
There's NO false equivalency.
Neo-Nazis/White supremacists, call 'em what you want, got a legal PERMIT to assemble and hold a rally. As disgusting as their message is, they had a Consitutional right and a legal permit to do so. Black rights activists, native American activists, Muslim activists... these groups all make official requests for permits and they are usually granted, and this is what the Nazi mob did. That's why the ACLU -- certainly no friends of white supremacists -- defended them. It's a 1st Amendment free speech issue.
Whereas the antifa mob had NO such permit. They came with baseball bats and bags of urine, and neither were peace offerings. They came itching for a fight. Their intentions were just as obvious as the Nazis.
That's why Trump said both sides are in the wrong, and nothing he said about this is untrue.
And it wasn't a "white supremacy debate." It was a rally to protect a statue of Robert E. Lee. There is, in spite of your "false equivalency" hoodoo, an actual debate about this very topic. It's just one you either ignore or refuse to see. It's the same debate worth having about the Talban firing mortar shells at the Buddhas of Bamiyan because those monuments are politically incorrect and culturally offensive and impure and symbology of paganism & infidels. Some people believe those monuments were worth preserving, but not the purity-mob.
US Politics