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@jc which what part of what I said is false?
People are confusing visitors with migration. The border is still open for EU visitors - nothing is changing there.
Anybody who enters Ireland via a legitimate method will pass the same checks they do now.
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
@jc which what part of what I said is false?
People are confusing visitors with migration. The border is still open for EU visitors - nothing is changing there.
Anybody who enters Ireland via a legitimate method will pass the same checks they do now.
The bit that is only partially true is the part where it has already been agreed that UK/EU access will still be visa free. That is only true if the May agreement is ratified. If there is a hard Brexit anything agreed won’t be put in place will it?
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
@majorrage said in Brexit:
@crucial Labour would withdraw article 50 without a doubt.
Sure. Then flounder around for ages trying to work out their next move. If they were to have that as part of their manifesto how many votes would they lose?
As much as a balls up this has been, I have to give May some credit for at least trying to make a silk purse from a pig's scrotum. It has been the process and vagueness around what 'out' really means that has been the killer. Imaging voting for something that wasn't defined but would have a major impact?Yes. Imagine that. A ridiculous thought.
As the Australian republic vote and NZ flag vote show this is the most effective strategy to dilute overall majority support for an idea by forcing it to coalesce behind a single form of brexit/flag/republic.
Except that didn't work for Cameron. And in a big way.
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
@jc which what part of what I said is false?
People are confusing visitors with migration. The border is still open for EU visitors - nothing is changing there.
Anybody who enters Ireland via a legitimate method will pass the same checks they do now.
The bit that is only partially true is the part where it has already been agreed that UK/EU access will still be visa free. That is only true if the May agreement is ratified. If there is a hard Brexit anything agreed won’t be put in place will it?
Ok gotcha. From UK to EU and vice versa that is correct. However my understanding is that UK/ROI has a separate agreement that they do each other’s entry checks - I don’t believe that leaving EU changes that, as the agreement there is seperate.
Not read the rules on that though, pure second hand information (travel desk at work)
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
@crucial Labour would withdraw article 50 without a doubt.
It has been the process and vagueness around what 'out' really means that has been the killer. Imaging voting for something that wasn't defined but would have a major impact?
You seem to keep beatng the drum that the vote was somehow confusing. It wasnt. It was very very straight forward. People wanted out of the EU, they werent voting on process, and for good reason. That would never end. Where exactly do you dstop ewith that? Answer - You dont, and therefore you never leaver the EU. Which admittedly is the goal of the remainers but hardly democratic.
This is just a continuation of the remainers arrogance in the assumption that people didnt know what they were voting for. Yes... they did.The question was straight forward, people understood it.
I think remainers will keep pushing for referendums until they get a win.. then suddenly all votes will be stopped and things will me magically clear. -
@baron-silas-greenback said in Brexit:
@majorrage said in Brexit:
@crucial Labour would withdraw article 50 without a doubt.
It has been the process and vagueness around what 'out' really means that has been the killer. Imaging voting for something that wasn't defined but would have a major impact?
You seem to keep beatng the drum that the vote was somehow confusing. It wasnt. It was very very straight forward. People wanted out of the EU, they werent voting on process, and for good reason. That would never end. Where exactly do you dstop ewith that? Answer - You dont, and therefore you never leaver the EU. Which admittedly is the goal of the remainers but hardly democratic.
This is just a continuation of the remainers arrogance in the assumption that people didnt know what they were voting for. Yes... they did.The question was straight forward, people understood it.
I think remainers will keep pushing for referendums until they get a win.. then suddenly all votes will be stopped and things will me magically clear. -
@baron-silas-greenback said in Brexit:
@majorrage said in Brexit:
@crucial Labour would withdraw article 50 without a doubt.
It has been the process and vagueness around what 'out' really means that has been the killer. Imaging voting for something that wasn't defined but would have a major impact?
You seem to keep beatng the drum that the vote was somehow confusing. It wasnt. It was very very straight forward. People wanted out of the EU, they werent voting on process, and for good reason. That would never end. Where exactly do you dstop ewith that? Answer - You dont, and therefore you never leaver the EU. Which admittedly is the goal of the remainers but hardly democratic.
This is just a continuation of the remainers arrogance in the assumption that people didnt know what they were voting for. Yes... they did.The question was straight forward, people understood it.
I think remainers will keep pushing for referendums until they get a win.. then suddenly all votes will be stopped and things will me magically clear.Seriously? That is quite an astounding lack of self awareness you are showing. You have been repeating ther same mantra for years and then accuse people who respond to it as broken record..
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Brexit:
@majorrage said in Brexit:
@crucial Labour would withdraw article 50 without a doubt.
It has been the process and vagueness around what 'out' really means that has been the killer. Imaging voting for something that wasn't defined but would have a major impact?
You seem to keep beatng the drum that the vote was somehow confusing. It wasnt. It was very very straight forward. People wanted out of the EU, they werent voting on process, and for good reason. That would never end. Where exactly do you dstop ewith that? Answer - You dont, and therefore you never leaver the EU. Which admittedly is the goal of the remainers but hardly democratic.
This is just a continuation of the remainers arrogance in the assumption that people didnt know what they were voting for. Yes... they did.The question was straight forward, people understood it.
I think remainers will keep pushing for referendums until they get a win.. then suddenly all votes will be stopped and things will me magically clear.That the Remainer logo?
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
So May wins the confidence vote 200 - 117.
Would you say that makes her position stronger than before the no confidence vote was forced? I'm thinking yes. Whilst it's not good to have 33% odd of your own party having no confidence it is still a pretty large margin of support.
I am not sure. But I think she only survived by promising to resign before the next election.
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
So May wins the confidence vote 200 - 117.
Would you say that makes her position stronger than before the no confidence vote was forced? I'm thinking yes. Whilst it's not good to have 33% odd of your own party having no confidence it is still a pretty large margin of support.
Here it would be an overwhelming display of support for the PM.
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@catogrande There can't be another No Confidence vote for 12 months so it gives her time to push through whatever she wants / can unencumbered by the threat of being rolled. She still has to win in parliament but I think her position has been strengthened somewhat - particularly as she's fucking off.
I'm with MiketheSnow - not a fan of May per se but having been foolish enough to grasp the poisoned chalice have a grudging regard (respect / admiration go too far) for her sticktoitiveness.
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
So May wins the confidence vote 200 - 117.
Would you say that makes her position stronger than before the no confidence vote was forced? I'm thinking yes. Whilst it's not good to have 33% odd of your own party having no confidence it is still a pretty large margin of support.
I don't know if it changes anything. The Tories who made it clear they wouldn't vote for her agreement are no more likely to soften their position in light of this vote are they? I'm sure a decent number of the MPs - even ones who gave her their confidence vote - aren't over the moon with her management of the process. Then there are others who simply don't like the deal. Finally there are the opportunists who just want to stab whoever is leader as a way to get themselves into the top job. Between them its unlikely her job is going to get any easier. And that's without mentioning the Euro warriors who seem intent on humiliating her as a way of punishing the uppity Brits.
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Fascinates me that MPs are prepared to vote for change when no credible candidate and/or direction has been offered.
So it could well have been a case of don't like May, vote her out, and now what the fuck do we do?
Baffling.
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Also brings to light is it a case of
- May, a Conservative, using her party and position to enact her wishes
or
- May enacting the wishes of her party and its members?
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@jc Thanks for detailed response on the Irish border issue. My knowledge in this area isn't great but for my own clarity then the most pressing issue is a likely return to terrorist violence if any form of border is put in place?
I know it's only been 20 years since the last attack but could tensions have reduced at all since? Have organisations made threats to a return to violence, do the younger generation still have that level of hostility? My few Irish friends are anti-EU/pro-Brexit, but they are in their 20's so maybe not as impacted by the past.
As for the issue with a soft border potentially a weakspot for illegal immigration, UK Brexiteers I know don't really care, it's not ideal but the whole situation isn't ideal and they just want to be out and this would still be a huge improvement. Surely additional resources could be put into NI to help mitigate against this issue without having to be on the border itself. I know there are existing visa 'spot checks' etc at UK airports, is it physical structures people are more opposed to than potential checks at airports? I kind of feel we are getting to the point where domestic flights are already getting increasingly strict.
Happy to bow to a better understanding of the political issues there.
Brexit