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Brexiteers (Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, Dominic Raab, David Davis) were put in charge of the process
It's a complete myth they were put in charge of the process and that's the problem.
The negotiations were handled (in secret) by Theresa May and Ollie Robbins - a senior civil servant. The first time Brexiteers like Michael Gove, Liam Fox & David David heard about May's Chequers plan for withdrawal was when she presented to Cabinet - and Davis was Brexit Secretary, FFS. That's why the likes of David Davis & Dominic Rabb resigned - May shut them out of the process.
The current Brexit mess is mainly down to May. She has made a complete pig's ear of this and has alienating everyone by changing her mind continuously and with breath-taking incompetence. Just look at the current fiasco where she hailed Tuesday's agreement as sorting out the backstop issue without having it checked legally first.
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That is really interesting @Victor-Meldrew, can only imagine how many different elements that sort of arrangement might have comprised of... probably starting with a fuck you from May, then all sorts of layers of power plays and trying to set up X, Y, Z outcomes.
If May has indeed cut out (for whatever reason) supporters of Brexit from the negotiation team/process then that seems just plain stupid. Presumably she thought having them involved, and exercising power?, was a worse outcome than them getting an out when her shitty deal was announced?
This is a right mind-fuck. With short-medium and long-term games being played, at personal, party and National level. I pity the poor students of the future who have to study this shitshow and come up with coherent analysis, as it feels like it's all over the bloody shop. At least to this layperson!
Keep the info and commentary coming guys - now that things like they are coming to a genuine head it's some spicy stuff.
Oh, not to detract from the humanity of what this might actually mean for any of our fern brethren, or folks at large in Britain. Story of our times aye, barrels of fun for the little guys/gals caught in the middle of all of this.
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@MajorRage Pretty much spot-on except the "brilliant positioning" is less the EU than May's incompetence. There is some talk that 1-2 EU governments may veto any extension to Article 50.
My guess is that May's deal will get thru once the pure-Brexit headbangers realise they have too much to lose by not supporting it.
Immense damage being done to faith in politicians - heard one MP say in the house today that "the people's views on this matter (Brexit) don't count"
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@Paekakboyz said in Brexit:
I pity the poor students of the future who have to study this shitshow and come up with coherent analysis, as it feels like it's all over the bloody shop. At least to this layperson!
Yep. And to think I struggled with something simple like The Battle of the Three Kingdoms.....
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@Paekakboyz said in Brexit:
This is a right mind-fuck.
It is truly staggering to hear MP's dismissing the result of a referendum, arguing for second and/or third referendums or arguing for the referendum result to be ignored.
MPs really seem to have lost their common sense and are running around like headless chickens with no thought of the consequences of their actions.
The vox pop is that voters are getting seriously pissed off with MPs both trying to find ways to frustrate the result of a referendum and purist Brexit MPs not willing to accept any reasonable deal.
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@Victor-Meldrew I guess that depends who wins doesn’t it. There seems to be an assumption that a second referendum necessarily results in a remain vote.
I think a second referendum would probably give the same result (unless they give two leave options and the vote gets split). People seem to just want to get on with it. And if the referendum is on concrete proposals then the government will have a direct mandate. As it currently stands, they cannot agree on what they have a mandate for which is why the shit show keeps dragging on.
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At the risk of adding some levity to this thread Straight Outta Compton/Brexit mashup
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No deal Brexit defeated, albeit narrowly. So no deal and no no deal. What a fuck up.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
Brexiteers (Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, Dominic Raab, David Davis) were put in charge of the process
It's a complete myth they were put in charge of the process and that's the problem.
The negotiations were handled (in secret) by Theresa May and Ollie Robbins - a senior civil servant. The first time Brexiteers like Michael Gove, Liam Fox & David David heard about May's Chequers plan for withdrawal was when she presented to Cabinet - and Davis was Brexit Secretary, FFS. That's why the likes of David Davis & Dominic Rabb resigned - May shut them out of the process.
The current Brexit mess is mainly down to May. She has made a complete pig's ear of this and has alienating everyone by changing her mind continuously and with breath-taking incompetence. Just look at the current fiasco where she hailed Tuesday's agreement as sorting out the backstop issue without having it checked legally first.
The other view on that is that they deliberately stayed clear of the process to avoid being tainted. I think it was reported that David Davis only attended half a day of negotiations for his whole stint as Brexit secretary. (Raab, to be fair, came in when it was pretty much all sewn up.)
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I am very surprised that it was that close. They were a gnats hair away from a no deal exit. I think (just guessing) that if the EU refuses to extend, and it becomes a choice of cancelling Brexit or no deal... then at least 4 MP's will change their vote.
And as for the claim made earier that Honda left becuase of Brexit.. that is just typoical of the dishonest narratives that ahve plagued this whole discussion. Remainers complain about the Leave side not being honest, yet are guilty of exactly the same thing. Honda leaving was not because of Brexit, only a few outlets like the Guardian have been pushing that. Direct from the company.
A few posters on this thread like @MajorRage and @Catogrande I disagree with quite strongly on Brexi, but I think their criticism of the process is spot on.
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@Victor-Meldrew I guess that depends who wins doesn’t it. There seems to be an assumption that a second referendum necessarily results in a remain vote.
I think a second referendum would probably give the same result (unless they give two leave options and the vote gets split). People seem to just want to get on with it. And if the referendum is on concrete proposals then the government will have a direct mandate. As it currently stands, they cannot agree on what they have a mandate for which is why the shit show keeps dragging on.
I don't think you get it. No-one on the Remain side stated they wanted a second referendum on the final deal with an option to remain in the EU - until they lost.
Just look at how Leave voters were attacked as feckless single mothers, benefit claimants, xenophobes , racists & bigots by Remainers
The public isn't stupid. They know the Remain campaign & Remain MPs will never respect the views of the electorate unless they vote the way they want them to.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@Victor-Meldrew I guess that depends who wins doesn’t it. There seems to be an assumption that a second referendum necessarily results in a remain vote.
I think a second referendum would probably give the same result (unless they give two leave options and the vote gets split). People seem to just want to get on with it. And if the referendum is on concrete proposals then the government will have a direct mandate. As it currently stands, they cannot agree on what they have a mandate for which is why the shit show keeps dragging on.
I don't think you get it. No-one on the Remain side stated they wanted a second referendum on the final deal with an option to remain in the EU - until they lost.
Just look at how Leave voters were attacked as feckless single mothers, benefit claimants, xenophobes , racists & bigots by Remainers
The public isn't stupid. They know the Remain campaign & Remain MPs will never respect the views of the electorate unless they vote the way they want them to.
Even worse is the Labor proposal. The only 2 options on a second referendum, Mays deal or Remain... FFS. It is almost like UK MP's are fighting to be the most retarded.
If you have any kind of integrity towards respecting the first referendum, any second referendum would be between Mays deal and no deal. -
The other view on that is that they deliberately stayed clear of the process to avoid being tainted.
I'm sorry, but that is laughable. Davis was sidelined from the start by May. He was working on a Trade deal with the EU which May simply tossed into the rubbish bin just before she presented the Chequers deal.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Brexit:
The way I see it, the remainers should have handed over the keys to the leavers and told them to put up or shut up. How can you have a PM in charge of this process who would reverse the result of the vote in an instance if she had the chance?
Brexiteers (Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, Dominic Raab, David Davis) were put in charge of the process. They all quit when they discovered that the EU wouldn't give them what they had promised that they could get. Turns out negotiation is about compromise ... who knew?
Given the response below, how much of that is actually true? Seems there is a shit load of misinformation going on in this thread.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@Victor-Meldrew I guess that depends who wins doesn’t it. There seems to be an assumption that a second referendum necessarily results in a remain vote.
I think a second referendum would probably give the same result (unless they give two leave options and the vote gets split). People seem to just want to get on with it. And if the referendum is on concrete proposals then the government will have a direct mandate. As it currently stands, they cannot agree on what they have a mandate for which is why the shit show keeps dragging on.
I don't think you get it. No-one on the Remain side stated they wanted a second referendum on the final deal with an option to remain in the EU - until they lost.
Just look at how Leave voters were attacked as feckless single mothers, benefit claimants, xenophobes , racists & bigots by Remainers
The public isn't stupid. They know the Remain campaign & Remain MPs will never respect the views of the electorate unless they vote the way they want them to.
Even worse is the Labor proposal. The only 2 options on a second referendum, Mays deal or Remain... FFS. It is almost like UK MP's are fighting to be the most retarded.
If you have any kind of integrity towards respecting the first referendum, any second referendum would be between Mays deal and no deal.Pretty much. There is serious anger at the antics of people on both sides of the debate. Very, very few coming out with any credit.
Labour's Customs Union proposal is staggeringly ill-thought out. Labour seems to think they can influence EU trade policy when the likes of Germany and France can't (It's the result of an ECJ ruling that only the EU Commision can negotiate trade deals).
E.g, the EU-US TTP Free Trade deal foundered (amongst other things) on the UK objecting to US Health companies having access to the NHS. With Trump threatening big tariffs on EU car exports as a lever to prise open the protectionist EU market, only a complete loon would think the EU would sacrifice it's car exports to keep US health companies from taking over parts of the NHS....
But there's plenty of loons in the Labour party.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
I am very surprised that it was that close. They were a gnats hair away from a no deal exit. I think (just guessing) that if the EU refuses to extend, and it becomes a choice of cancelling Brexit or no deal... then at least 4 MP's will change their vote.
And as for the claim made earier that Honda left becuase of Brexit.. that is just typoical of the dishonest narratives that ahve plagued this whole discussion. Remainers complain about the Leave side not being honest, yet are guilty of exactly the same thing. Honda leaving was not because of Brexit, only a few outlets like the Guardian have been pushing that. Direct from the company.
A few posters on this thread like @MajorRage and @Catogrande I disagree with quite strongly on Brexi, but I think their criticism of the process is spot on.
My bad. I meant Nissan (Sunderland) not Honda (Swindon).
Those jap cars all look alike.
And no, Brexit wasn’t the main or only reason for pulling X-trail manufacturing but was cited as a contributing factor both from the uncertainty aspect and because the new EU/Japan trade deal means it makes more sense to pull production back to Japan as the UK is no longer needed or desirable.
The point of the original comment was an example of entrenched yet unfounded views. Only days before the announcement and locals closely associated with the plant were claiming that they knew things would be good because their work was valued over complications of trade. Got it wrong.
I’m sure there will be views of remainders proved wrong after leaving as well. -
His resignation letter (2nd para) refers to being sidelined by May.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/david-davis-why-i-quit/
and he refers to the alternative proposals his department was working on in his letter to MPs (bottom final page)
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EU/Japan trade deal means it makes more sense to pull production back to Japan as the UK is no longer needed or desirable.
And that's the real elephant in the room.
The EU is becoming increasingly uncompetitive as the economic centre of gravity moves to Asia Pacific and it's "Fortress Europe" protectionist trade policy is coming under attack from both Trump and growing economies.
Does the UK strike out on it's own (it's traditionally been more Free trade than other EU countries) or does it stick with the EU with it's shrinking share of world trade and try to reform it from within?
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@Victor-Meldrew EU has signed or negotiated some pretty decent non protectionist treaties in recent years such as Japan, Singapore and Canada along with plenty under negotiations such as NZ and Australia.
TPP has obviously stalled due to the US but it is coming down to the UK finding itself siding with the yanks or Europe.
Europe just makes way more sense both geographically and for access to Asia at present. Sure the Eurocrats are dicks but they will always have to be playing by someone’s rules, if not Europe’s then the US.
The two are so far apart on many standards that trying to play on both teams will be a nightmare especially for manufacturers and farmers.
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