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I have played around with the 21 foot rule (7 metres) during training and yeah, you have fuck all chance of drawing your weapon out of the holster and getting off accurate shots if an offender comes at you within that distance. <br><br>
It's all very well saying police should de-escalate the situation but sometimes you can't. Every day there are good outcomes in these sorts of scenarios that never make the news. The one in a thousand that ends badly makes the news. <br><br>
The offender is the one that sets the rules for any particular interaction with police. Brandish a knife or gun and the chances are you will find yourself dealing with a police officer that wants to go home alive at the end of the shift. <br><br>
Lethal force is the last thing the vast majority of police want to use. You will never be the same again if you find yourself having to apply it. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="547979" data-time="1450306707">
<div>
<p>I have played around with the 21 foot rule (7 metres) during training and yeah, you have fuck all chance of drawing your weapon out of the holster and getting off accurate shots if an offender comes at you within that distance.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>In a situation where you already have the weapon out, cocked, and pointed though you have a little more wiggle room, but you're still not taking the chance that someone throws that knife/machete etc.</p> -
Yeah you have more wiggle room for sure. If you have the chance to point a gun at someone holding a knife and start communicating often it will end well, but even then if you are within 7 metres you have no time to get the fuck out of there if it goes to shit. Unfortunately most interaction with these people seems to happen within 7 metres. If you can get further away the odds of hitting them if you have to fire greatly reduces - handguns are not all that accurate and most police are not expert shots.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="547984" data-time="1450307895">
<div>
<p>Yeah you have more wiggle room for sure. If you have the chance to point a gun at someone holding a knife and start communicating often it will end well, but even then if you are within 7 metres you have no time to get the fuck out of there if it goes to shit. Unfortunately most interaction with these people seems to happen within 7 metres. If you can get further away the odds of hitting them if you have to fire greatly reduces -<strong> handguns are not all that accurate and </strong>most police are not expert shots.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I watch movies, hand guns are accurate as!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Not to mention not knowing if the offender is on something, or is after an outcome...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="548001" data-time="1450315600"><p>
I watch movies, hand guns are accurate as!<br><br>
Not to mention not knowing if the offender is on something, or is after an outcome...</p></blockquote>
<br>
Yeah what does crazy horse know? In die hard three john MacLaine shot out a power line with a snub nosed pistol . -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="548054" data-time="1450338126"><p>
Yeah what does crazy horse know? In die hard three john MacLaine shot out a power line with a snub nosed pistol .</p></blockquote>
<br>
weirdly enough I think this is the average gun toting americans view on it too -
<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="547984" data-time="1450307895"><p>If you can get further away the odds of hitting them if you have to fire greatly reduces - handguns are not all that accurate and most police are not expert shots.</p></blockquote>
<br>
And the adrenalin factor. I love watching shows like Doomsday Preppers where they do some target practice and are all gung-ho about their survival chances. Different when someone is shooting back. -
<p>Yeah, a bit like that Mike Tyson quote "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".</p>
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<p>If "more guns is the answer" then this should help:</p>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://blog.uspatriottactical.com/m249-goes-semi-auto-fnh-usas-new-m249s/'>http://blog.uspatriottactical.com/m249-goes-semi-auto-fnh-usas-new-m249s/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>In essence: the M249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) that is the standard LMG for the US military, is now available in a semi-auto version for civilians.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Obviously the difference is they've removed the option for full auto, and using a closed bolt as a result. But I'm sure some happy chappy will fuck around with that at the first opportunity so they can throw some lead downrange... or into a police station/school/military recruitment office.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You can even get an 800-round backpack feed if you like!</p>
<p> </p>
<p> -
<p>The weapon itself is USD8k - backpack I've no idea.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Getting either into the country is probably the issue.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The M249 is the US version of the Minimi F89 that the Australian military use as the squad-based LMG (5.56mm NATO). I was reading the NZ Army still use a 7.62mm?</p> -
I think they have both , I was at an open day and they let us play with an unloaded 5.56 version. They've had the 7.62 version for a long time, my step brother joined in the early 80s and the gpmg was around back then.<br><br>
They are ditching the Steyrs and moving to a version of the m4 made by Lewis machine and tool. You guys are keeping yours because they are manufactured in Australia ? -
<p>We're moving to a new version of the Steyr - <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.army.gov.au/Our-work/Equipment-and-clothing/Small-Arms/Enhanced-F88'>http://www.army.gov.au/Our-work/Equipment-and-clothing/Small-Arms/Enhanced-F88</a></p>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Enhanced F88 Austeyr (EF88 if you like) and my brother (Army), who is staying with us over Xmas, said its a good step up from the original Steyr. Lighter, better accuracy, the grenade launcher sights are incorporated and the trigger mechanism for it is better. Some bloke did a writeup on it here which discusses the other enhancements: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/01/12/ef88-australias-next-generation-assault-rifle/'>http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/01/12/ef88-australias-next-generation-assault-rifle/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>They're marketing it internationally as the F90 - here's a vid of the guys at Thales (Lithgow, just west of Sydney) running through some test procedures.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> -
<p>Interesting situation in the US over ... well shit i dunno - land usage and democracy and guns n shit. The language and coverage are interesting points - its not "terrorism" in this case; apparently its rampant patriotism and something that this particular kind of idiot has been itching to do i.e. stand up to the guvmint!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't think these hicks appreciate that in taking on their government, they are, as Jim Jeffries said: bringing guns to a drone fight. Local authorities won't do much, but I would love to see Delta Team deployed on a night op to scare the shit out of them.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And yes, I fully appreciate that the hicks probably have NVG and other freely available "prepper" equipment of their own :)</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/social-media-questions-lame-response-to-militant-group-occupying-oregon-wildlife-park/news-story/36b7e7f287e05d3d094343a73820dd24'>http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/social-media-questions-lame-response-to-militant-group-occupying-oregon-wildlife-park/news-story/36b7e7f287e05d3d094343a73820dd24</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p>A GROUP of men in the US storm a federal government building armed to the teeth and declare a plan to occupy it for years.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Cue pandemonium, right? Well, not so much.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Despite the sensational actions of the group, the response from the American media has been regarded by many as tepid, disinterested and hypocritical.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The top trending hashtag on Twitter this morning was #OregonUnderAttack but the bulk of the activity has been from those lamenting the double standards shown by the American media and authorities, with many highlighting the hypocrisy of the reaction in general.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here’s what happened:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Over the weekend, an armed group of American ranchers took over a building at a national wildlife refuge in Oregon and called on “fellow patriots†to grab their guns and join them in the fight.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The takeover followed a peaceful march held by the group in support for ranchers Dwight Hammond, 73, and Steven Hammond, 46, who are scheduled to report to federal prison this week after being convicted of arson.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The Hammond ranchers say they lit the fires — which burned 130 acres of federally-leased land — to reduce the growth of invasive plants and to protect their property from wildfires. But the prosecution alleged they did so to cover up poaching. The father and son were convicted in 2012 and have already served jail time (the father three months, the son one year) but now must return for an additional term of about four years after a federal judge overruled the initial sentencing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Among the militant group are three brothers from the controversial Bundy family. The patriarch of the family is Cliven Bundy who was <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.news.com.au/world/dispute-between-rancher-cliven-bundy-and-authorities-escalating-with-the-presence-of-militia-groups/story-fndir2ev-1226880626677'>at the centre of a dramatic standoff with federal officials in 2014</a> over his right to allow cows to graze on federal land. Similar to the situation in Oregon, the Bundy family were joined by armed supporters and the incident turned into a national flashpoint for anti-government sentiment among libertarians.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>A Bundy family member told local media there are 150 people in the group occupying the wildlife refuge in Oregon, but nearby reporters say the number of men is likely closer to 15.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The men say they are willing to use force and violence if authorities try to remove them from their post.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>“I didn’t come here to shoot, I came here to die,†one of the men <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href=''>told a reporter</a> on the outskirts of the wildlife park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>A local school district has announced it will keep schools closed all week due to the standoff.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So far no substantial police force has been deployed to the area. Police sheriff Dave Ward told locals to stay away from the park as authorities work to defuse the situation.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>“I haven’t seen a single law enforcement vehicle out here,†a local reported at the scene <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href=''>posted on Twitter</a> this morning.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In response, social media has been ablaze with those flabbergasted by the tepid reaction from authorities and the media.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Much of the discontent has been around the language used to describe the group and the media’s reticence to label their actions as a form of terrorism.</p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The article goes on to describe some of the individuals involved - one of whom is an ex-Marine with a reported history of anti-Islamic sentiment.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There are some class tweets around this as always.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> -
The govt is probably doing bugger all to deprive these clowns of publicity as much as they can. There's been a few of these fuckwits do similarly stupid things over the years, the Bundys mentioned in that article , Ruby Ridge, Waco those idiots that killed the talkback host in the 80s and they seem to inspire the next group of jackasses every time the govt cracks down on them.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="550451" data-time="1451878785">
<div>
<p>The govt is probably doing bugger all to deprive these clowns of publicity as much as they can. There's been a few of these fuckwits do similarly stupid things over the years, the Bundys mentioned in that article , Ruby Ridge, Waco those idiots that killed the talkback host in the 80s and they seem to inspire the next group of jackasses every time the govt cracks down on them.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>It's usually a property rights issue. I thought you were conservative Jegga. Defending the state over the individual seems kinda, wellll, super-duper-socialist-liberal. Just sayin'!</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="550468" data-time="1451882649"><p>
It's usually a property rights issue. I thought you were conservative Jegga. Defending the state over the individual seems kinda, wellll, super-duper-socialist-liberal. Just sayin'!</p></blockquote>
<br>
No you're as wrong as you were when you had that rant last month where you said Breitbart was my favourite site . What an odd post.<br><br>
Why would anyone be defending armed nutters taking over a building? I'm hoping that none of them get a chance to get killed and become martyrs and instead after weeks of boring themselves shitless in the building the authorities fill the building with CS gas and send in the dogs . -
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/04/us/04oregon-listy.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0'>http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/04/us/04oregon-listy.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0</a>
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<p>Well-well Jegga, I apologize. I didn't know you were a leftie authoritarian socialist like me, I thought you were on the other side, so my mistake. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Like yourself, a fellow liberal, I don't like guns either. I'm an hour from Buffalo and two from Detroit. A visit to a 7/11 in either city after hours means getting past a hired-gun, yes really, who'll sit at the door on a milk crate with a revolver in his lap. Kinda frightens me, and makes me pleased to escape back across the border. But I don't get too worked up about their system. My primary concern is what goes on in my own neighborhood, and what the government does with my taxes. I'm much more concerned about pissheads racing cars around town than what happens in a foreign country. Mostly because it concerns me directly and I might be able to do something about it. A very liberal perspective, I'm sure you will agree. And really, with the much higher fatality rate where I live accounted by drunk drivers rather than gunfire, I'm not sure whether I should be banning alcohol, automobiles, or both. I'm pretty sure if we did ban both, and permitted automobiles exclusively for the use of police, ambulances, and fire-trucks, we'd probably be safer. Sadly, economics, property rights and that damned Charter of Rights and Freedoms mean I lose and that pesky capitalist system you and me are trying to defeat, if I understand you correctly, prevails, again. So I'll just have to reseve energy and stop worrying and learn to love the status quo. Oh well. I can always browbeat those idiotic Americans and their stupid 2nd Amendment. Makes me feel better already.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This might interest you, it's a commentary (<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2016/01/03/the-war-against-the-cowboys/'>"The War Against Cowboys"</a>) about the current scandal, but beware, it's a conservative position that I despise and like me might make you pig-stomping mad because it actually does defend armed nutters, and if my liberal head explodes I'm pretty sure yours might too. Keep away from sharp objects. And liquor. And automobiles. Ahhh, safer already.</p>
Guns?.........or is that the least of the problems?