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@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Leaders have been chipping away at democracy since the results of the Brexit vote,
Since well before that. But perhaps by comparison to the last 4-5 years it pales.
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@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Look at the state of the "mostly peaceful" BLM marches.
There is a clear entitlement belief that if you don't like the state of something (regardless of any proof, democratic vote) you have the right to go and cause violence outside political buildings.I guess the difference being that BLM were concerned about the ongoing loss of life in a society characterised by institutionalised racism.
These guys are just a core of conspiracy theorists, surrounded by opportunists, and a smattering of simpletons, having a giant sook about an election they're too stupid to accept they lost. -
@NTA said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Look at the state of the "mostly peaceful" BLM marches.
There is a clear entitlement belief that if you don't like the state of something (regardless of any proof, democratic vote) you have the right to go and cause violence outside political buildings.I guess the difference being that BLM were concerned about the ongoing loss of life in a society characterised by institutionalised racism.
These guys are just a core of conspiracy theorists, surrounded by opportunists, and a smattering of simpletons, having a giant sook about an election they're too stupid to accept they lost.I think it is clear BLM was partly hijacked by groups whose message was quite different from the core sentiment. Trump should have blood on his hands over this, these people look to him and he did nothing to calm them, in fact he did quite the opposite. And for what? For his own personal ego an being unable to accept that he lost
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@MajorRage I take it you weren't here for the summer of riots back in the 80s?
I was (which makes me feel bloody old..) and It is eerily similar in many ways.
IIRC, those riots were mainly a reaction against some pretty appalling policing & inner-city poverty affecting all races, and also in London from overt discrimination against non-white (mainly black) people. That said, there were a number of violent "anti-racist" protests directed against right-wing parties like the BNP.
Seems to me the current protests are more from relatively well-off people, and based more on race, tribal and cultural differences than poverty, and appear to be implicitly supported by what seems to be a large section of the political establishment. You sense they simply want to tear stuff down rather than improve peoples lives.
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@NTA said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Leaders have been chipping away at democracy since the results of the Brexit vote,
Since well before that. But perhaps by comparison to the last 4-5 years it pales.
Started in the UK in the early-2000's when the government departments sacked people for standing as election candidates for parties they thought beyond the pale.
By 2010, we'd ended up with foster parents having children removed from their care because they admitted to voting for Nigel Farage.
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@NTA said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Look at the state of the "mostly peaceful" BLM marches.
There is a clear entitlement belief that if you don't like the state of something (regardless of any proof, democratic vote) you have the right to go and cause violence outside political buildings.I guess the difference being that BLM were concerned about the ongoing loss of life in a society characterised by institutionalised racism.
These guys are just a core of conspiracy theorists, surrounded by opportunists, and a smattering of simpletons, having a giant sook about an election they're too stupid to accept they lost.So are you saying you support the BLM protestors that aggressively shouted FUCK THE POLICE in front of downing street in an aggressive manner and then threw things inciting a riot?
I don't condone either. And I also acknowledge that both are a fringe of their entire supporter blocks. But yet people seem to feel morally obligated to give reasons for the BLM ones, but then just outright condone the US Capitols ones as Trump supporters. What do you think that does to mainstream Trump supporters?
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@canefan said in US Politics:
I think it is clear BLM was partly hijacked by groups whose message was quite different from the core sentiment. Trump should have blood on his hands over this, these people look to him and he did nothing to calm them, in fact he did quite the opposite. And for what? For his own personal ego an being unable to accept that he lost
Can't disagree with any of that, but the likes of Biden, Obama, Clinton & Pelosi share equal blame for the inflammatory language they have spewed out against Trump and his supporters these last 4-5 years.
And they all knew exactly what they were doing.
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@NTA said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Look at the state of the "mostly peaceful" BLM marches.
There is a clear entitlement belief that if you don't like the state of something (regardless of any proof, democratic vote) you have the right to go and cause violence outside political buildings.I guess the difference being that BLM were concerned about the ongoing loss of life in a society characterised by institutionalised racism.
These guys are just a core of conspiracy theorists, surrounded by opportunists, and a smattering of simpletons, having a giant sook about an election they're too stupid to accept they lost.I think it is clear BLM was partly hijacked by groups whose message was quite different from the core sentiment. Trump should have blood on his hands over this, these people look to him and he did nothing to calm them, in fact he did quite the opposite. And for what? For his own personal ego an being unable to accept that he lost
I think you'll find many good Republican Americans think the same thing for their side
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@NTA said in US Politics:
These guys are just a core of conspiracy theorists, surrounded by opportunists, and a smattering of simpletons, having a giant sook about an election they're too stupid to accept they lost.
Sounds like many of Remainers we have in the UK.
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@NTA said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Look at the state of the "mostly peaceful" BLM marches.
There is a clear entitlement belief that if you don't like the state of something (regardless of any proof, democratic vote) you have the right to go and cause violence outside political buildings.I guess the difference being that BLM were concerned about the ongoing loss of life in a society characterised by institutionalised racism.
These guys are just a core of conspiracy theorists, surrounded by opportunists, and a smattering of simpletons, having a giant sook about an election they're too stupid to accept they lost.I think it is clear BLM was partly hijacked by groups whose message was quite different from the core sentiment. Trump should have blood on his hands over this, these people look to him and he did nothing to calm them, in fact he did quite the opposite. And for what? For his own personal ego an being unable to accept that he lost
I think you'll find many good Republican Americans think the same thing for their side
But what is their cause actually? Do they really believe the election was stolen? Lindsay Graham's speech said it all. He prayed Joe would lose, but he will accept the result and the judgments of all those judges for the sake of the nation and it's constitution.
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@NTA said in US Politics:
I guess the difference being that BLM were concerned about the ongoing loss of life in a society characterised by institutionalised racism.
There were over 200 kids knifed to death in London in 2019 - almost all black and involved in delivering drugs. There wasn't a peep from BLM or those groups protesting about George Floyd's death and tearing statues down.
The cynic in me can't help thinking those two things are connected.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
I think it is clear BLM was partly hijacked by groups whose message was quite different from the core sentiment. Trump should have blood on his hands over this, these people look to him and he did nothing to calm them, in fact he did quite the opposite. And for what? For his own personal ego an being unable to accept that he lost
Can't disagree with any of that, but the likes of Biden, Obama, Clinton & Pelosi share equal blame for the inflammatory language they have spewed out against Trump and his supporters these last 4-5 years.
And they all knew exactly what they were doing.
I'll re-post this "Conversation".
BBC's US correspondent. Fair warning it is 40-odd minutes (just so you don't click on a YouTube video to find out it's 90 minutes of talking you subsequently ignore) and it comes up in the second half, but in the end lays the blame of increasing polarisation at the feet of the post-war generation, asserting that those who had gone through WWII had the best interests of the country at heart (regardless of party), those subsequent perhaps more dogma and parochial interests. Clinton being the first post war President.
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I'm not a fan of violence, political or otherwise (apart from in sport), but it's the standard operating model of humanity since agriculture and larger settlements replaced the hunter-gatherer model of small family-based groups.
Democracy and the Rule of Law are a model to minimise violence, but they were instituted because of protests, riots and worse, not out of the goodness of the hearts of the elites. That doesn't mean that we should be violent now, but it's hardly a surprise that people who don't like current political outcomes get violent - it's been the way of the world for thousands of years.
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@MajorRage said in US Politics:
So are you saying you support the BLM protestors that aggressively shouted FUCK THE POLICE in front of downing street in an aggressive manner and then threw things inciting a riot?
Actually I was talking about the BLM protestors in the US, not the UK. Context is important even if some of the systemic racism bleeds over.
And I absolutely condone forceful protest when all other measures have failed. There are limits to what is an acceptable level of violence though, which again is down to context.
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@booboo said in US Politics:
those who had gone through WWII had the best interests of the country at heart (regardless of party), those subsequent perhaps more dogma and parochial interests. Clinton being the first post war President.
Interesting. Read there's been an big increase in the number of ex-Services people being elected to Congress in the last few years. They have formed a group to fight the partisan nastiness and inject grown up behaviour. Led by Tulsi Gabbard & Dan Crenshaw IIRC.
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Lets not get the thread locked again. Thanks in advance.
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@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
Lets not get the thread locked again. Thanks in advance.
Good point. Action taken.
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