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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@winger said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
It's going to be a long and tortuous path to stability if the goal remains elimination until vaccination.
Do you really think the vaccine will make any difference?
It has in Israel & the UK. NZ has an opportunity to keep it's death rate really low, protect its population and open up the economy safely.
And accept that trying to stop a virus is like trying to stop the tide coming in. And think that maybe the way we did things in the past wasn't so bad.
If you can't stop it, then you protect people against it with vaccines - as we do/did with 'flu & smallpox,
Protection is the best option. Just need to reduce the virus to the point where it isn't as lethal anymore. Just like the flu
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@frank said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
I propose the measure of Covid response effectiveness include some objective economic numbers - how much debt is being raised as % of GDP to fund lockdowns, how many jobs have been lost etc.
That would be transparency.
Being kind and giving looks of pained empathy without hard punitive measures for those breaking the rules just doesn't cut it.
Example - a guy here in Taiwan broke the quarantine rules after being warned for breaking it once- fine 50,000 NZD.This sounds Ok (not to me but to some) Except when the rules get even more restrictive and silly (and that's likely the future) ... And all the rules are in the law books to support this. So be careful supporting this. It might impact you or your family etc before long,
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
If you can't stop it, then you protect people against it with vaccines - as we do/did with 'flu & smallpox,
You have more confidence than me. Esp based on the flu vaccine that didn't seem to protect that well. I worked with people who were sick for months one year and they all (at least the ones that I asked) got the flu shot.
And I've read 2 reports (one on the silverfern) were someone had the covid vaccine and a short spell after got covid. So I hope you're right but ...
And has the Uk opened everything back up?
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@winger said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
If you can't stop it, then you protect people against it with vaccines - as we do/did with 'flu & smallpox,
You have more confidence than me. Esp based on the flu vaccine that didn't seem to protect that well. I worked with people who were sick for months one year and they all (at least the ones that I asked) got the flu shot.
Personally, I prefer to base my judgments on controlled, peer-reviewed, independently-assessed clinical studies rather than what the bloke who works with me says.
And I've read 2 reports (one on the silverfern) were someone had the covid vaccine and a short spell after got covid. So I hope you're right but ...
The vaccine protects against serious illness and hospitalisation & transmission - it doesn't stop you catching it. All vaccines work like that.
And has the Uk opened everything back up?
In stages as the vaccination program rolls out. Expected to be pretty much back to normal in 12-13 weeks time.
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So they have found where this person got it, someone in the earlier family didn't disclose a close contact and this close contact was the gym guy.
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
So they have found where this person got it, someone in the earlier family didn't disclose a close contact and this close contact was the gym guy.
honestly, no system can handle people lying to it and ignoring protocols.
I was thinking about this, and how much culpability the 21 year old should carry. I think it's similar to drink driving - you know you are at risk after a few pints, but you get behind the wheel anyway. Most of the time you probably get home without a disaster ... but if you have a crash/Covid, it has a massive impact on innocent people. And some people (thankfully almost no one these days) will downplay the risk of driving while drunk/covid
Yet we wouldn't say 'he's only 21, he's stupid, he doesn't know what he's doing' about drink driving? Our system could be better, but goddamn that person has to cop a fair bit of responsibility for this.
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@jk said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Did anyone catch the bit on TV1 news last night where they said that approx 50 people turned up to a church service in Mt Roskill yesterday morning? Amazingly, all of them hadn't heard anything about the lockdown....
Mrs CF saw that. They are either incredibly insulated, or they are lying. In order to make sure there is no doubt the messages are getting through, perhaps the ministry should have paid employees that personally contact church and community leaders to inform them of changes in covid levels and what that means? At least it will mean that the responsibility will lie with someone in these communities to spread the word and no one can say they weren't told. Much cheaper than L3 or even L2
Meanwhile, another sign of the government's haphazard response, and evidence of almost 12 months of wasted time
A lack of a plan for vaccine distribution
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@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
So they have found where this person got it, someone in the earlier family didn't disclose a close contact and this close contact was the gym guy.
honestly, no system can handle people lying to it and ignoring protocols.
I was thinking about this, and how much culpability the 21 year old should carry. I think it's similar to drink driving - you know you are at risk after a few pints, but you get behind the wheel anyway. Most of the time you probably get home without a disaster ... but if you have a crash/Covid, it has a massive impact on innocent people. And some people (thankfully almost no one these days) will downplay the risk of driving while drunk/covid
Yet we wouldn't say 'he's only 21, he's stupid, he doesn't know what he's doing' about drink driving? Our system could be better, but goddamn that person has to cop a fair bit of responsibility for this.
Same as the pilot in Taiwan, bad enough to break the rules, even worse to lie about it and slow the response down
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan but but this says we Da bestest!
Taiwan is 3rd, easier with thier 23 mill....
Taiwan has yet to locked down apparently....
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It is becoming more and more obvious that there is a big disconnect between government messaging and platforms used, and South Auckland. So local community leaders and politicians are going to have to step up and go old school boots on the ground, with translators. Then there can be no we didn't know/understand/hear.
This in no way negates my yearning to bitchslap the 21yo, and those who once again have been caught lying or withholding critical information.
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@mokey said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
It is becoming more and more obvious that there is a big disconnect between government messaging and platforms used, and South Auckland. So local community leaders and politicians are going to have to step up and go old school boots on the ground, with translators. Then there can be no we didn't know/understand/hear.
As I said, cheaper than going into lockdown all the time
This in no way negates my yearning to bitchslap the 21yo, and those who once again have been caught lying or withholding critical information.
There have to be repercussions for his actions. Let's not mollycoddle the whole community, they need to act like fucking adults about this
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
There have to be repercussions for his actions. Let's not mollycoddle the whole community, they need to act like fucking adults about this
In a team, if you don't pull your weight, your team mates let you know. I'm not impressed with him here at all - -also it seems our system is so fragile that any unexpected case means L3 lockdowns, which is just a nightmare scenario. And we're at the back fo the queue for vaccination as we're under control.
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@nzzp yet this case wouldnt have been unexpected had the previous family told the truth about contact with this person, so you'd have to think level change was entirely avoidable (the argument we shouldnt have dropped so early the other week is another issue)
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@nzzp while hoping this outbreak can be squished this latest fuck up has to act as the last warning to people imo. From here on out we need to get tougher and there needs to be repercussions for these sorts of actions -
With vaccines coming through we need to hang on so we can drastically reduce the chance of it spreading via our Q facilities. Definitely agree we should be prioritising south Akld alongside Q workers and our vaccination staff. -
@nzzp We are not at the back of the queue for vaccine and we haven't gone into L3 every time we have a case. We didn't for the Defence Force cluster or the Northland one.
I'm as fucked off as anyone about being back at L3 but it is a total misrepresentation to say the govt hasn't learned anything in 12 months. They have made plenty of mistakes but how we respond to Covid has evolved. Unfortunately so has the virus. We simply can't instigate the same policies as the likes of Taiwan and Singapore. Kiwi's are far less quiescent. What can be done on those countries can't be replicated here. The yells of police state would be deafening.
I have been thinking about what needs to be done with this selfish prick who has cost us all a large measure of freedom and the economy millions. I can't see any defence for his actions. Personal responsibility FFS. Yeah a 21 yr old is still a kid, but he knew what he was doing was wrong and thought fuck it anyway.
The problem as I see it is people inherently lie and that is a conundrum for the government. Increase punishments for transgressions. People will simply lie or avoid getting tested at all so they don't get found out.
I have been told by a very senior source that Ministry of Health are pretty sure how this latest outbreak got across the border but it can't be proven. Not blaming the woman at the airport as she may not be patient 0 but someone contracted it at the airport and the very high suspicion is they were friendly with someone they wouldn't want their partner to know about. So they lie. More draconian measures simply increases the probability that people will cover up their actions.
We have thousands of exampoles of people not doing the right thing. Just look at the queues to get out of Auckland.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp We are not at the back of the queue for vaccine and we haven't gone into L3 every time we have a case. We didn't for the Defence Force cluster or the Northland one.
I agree - but the last two 'unexpected' cases in teh community have gone straight to L3. I don't think the government have another option with our current culture. Our collective actions - not scanning, not socially distancing, not wearing masks by default - is leaving us vulnerable to outbreaks. That leaves us in a fragile system.
Edit: I didn't address the 'back of the queue' comment -- but we sure as hell aren't at the front. Not much we can do there, but we're going to be exposed for some considerable time waiting to get enough people vaccinated.
Seriously, we need culture change in this area, and that's going to hard work, at best moderately effective, and bloody unpopular. If we don't commit to that, then we will keep a fragile system that means that we'll be yo-yoing in and out of levels as we won't have a choice.
I'm as fucked off as anyone about being back at L3 but it is a total misrepresentation to say the govt hasn't learned anything in 12 months.
You'll note I didn't say that. The government have definitely evolved and responded, but it feels very reactionary. The cost of the last two lockdowns would comfortably have covered (for instance) a bluetooth card for everyone in the country. We don't seem to be proactive in wanting to change with our 'she'll be right' attitude. If we take as a given that the virus will cross the border occasionally, how do we build a resilient system inside NZ to avoid that? That is our challenge I'd say
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@dogmeat One thing I can't understand is the whole country not going to L3. As you point out there are alot of people heading out when it's announced.
It's not like there is a wall/moat preventing people from leaving.
We are a small country and don't restrict people's movement so surely a nationwide lockdown is the safest option to prevent community transmission.
As others have mentioned, we appear to rely on luck to stop the spread.
Coronavirus - New Zealand