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@majorrage genuinely rage, and not related to our views on the virus lethality.
After a year of incredible prioritisation of the NHS, when is the time you ask "is this nhs actually any good?". It seems awfully not up to the task of delivering health and improving lives of the people because for the last year it's been the people delivering health and improving life of the NHS.After a year, the much vaunted NHS has looked pretty fragile at every juncture.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
Maybe their pertinent statistic is 4.3 million who have recovered.
And they don't are about the 120k+ who have died?
Maybe they aren't in the at risk group for age and physical health. I don't agree that they think they are risking their lives at all.
They're not risking their own lives - but they are risking the lives of others.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage genuinely rage, and not related to our views on the virus lethality.
Honestly, UK & Aus based TSF'ers are naturally going to have a huge difference in their views on this compared to European based.
After a year of incredible prioritisation of the NHS, when is the time you ask "is this nhs actually any good?". It seems awfully not up to the task of delivering health and improving lives for the people because for the last year it's been the people delivering health and improving life for the NHS.
After a year, the much vaunted NHS has looked pretty fragile.
Depends on who you ask and what their politics are.
I think as completely free healthcare goes, it's pretty damn good. It's far from perfect, and there are loads of ways it could be improved. But it is a government run organisation, which means it's political as all hell, has a huge excess of non-line staff & is extremely reliant on immigrants to do the lesser paid jobs (which sadly includes some front line staff). It's also put on such a pedestal by many commentators that it's considered unpatriotic to criticise it.
If you compare the results of the NHS in dealing with pandemic to most of our European neighbours, it falls in line. It's certainly fragile, and the waiting lists now for operations are excessively long. I think the way the NHS really works is that if you have small issues which require medication, or the worst possible things (Cancer etc), then it's very good. But middle of the road healthcare (sports injuries, dodgy knees etc) then it's quite poor.
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@kruse ok, do I insist my 18 month old nephew gets vaccinated? Is that logic or religion?
The science does not indicate vaccination for an 18 month old. I don't see what point you are trying to make
Why not?
I'm making the point that "the science" ( amazing that we think there is only one science) is not as clear cut as people are reducing it too. There are many questions, but you're the first I've encountered with answers
What about his 8 year old brother? What is the vaccine cut off and why is it that age?
What about pregnant women?
Genuine questions if you know the answers👍
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@kruse ok, do I insist my 18 month old nephew gets vaccinated? Is that logic or religion?
The science does not indicate vaccination for an 18 month old. I don't see what point you are trying to make
Why not?
I'm making the point that "the science" ( amazing that we think there is only one science) is not as clear cut as people are reducing it too. There are many questions, but you're the first I've encountered with answers
What about his 8 year old brother? What is the vaccine cut off and why is it that age?
What about pregnant women?
Genuine questions if you know the answers👍
The science does not indicate vaccination for children period. In NZ vaccination for pregnant women is not contraindicated. Apparently vaccination for children ad young as 12 is fine, in line with many vaccinations. But in NZ its 16 and over. Probably supply related and relative risk
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
Maybe their pertinent statistic is 4.3 million who have recovered.
And they don't are about the 120k+ who have died?
Maybe they aren't in the at risk group for age and physical health. I don't agree that they think they are risking their lives at all.
They're not risking their own lives - but they are risking the lives of others.
Devils advocate to parse out a point:
We know that the biggest risk to death by covid, other than age, is obesity, yes? If no, I'll stop here.We know that very generally speaking, healthy under 60s don't die from covid?
Why is it encumbant on me to put something unwanted in my body to save someone who put lots of crap into theirs? Where does my chain of responsibility end, and theirs begin?
(Again, just playing here mate - trying to get a robust philosophy)
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
We know that very generally speaking, healthy under 60s don't die from covid?
Why is it encumbant on me to put something unwanted in my body to save someone who put lots of crap into theirs? Where does my chain of responsibility end, and theirs begin?Probably something to do with externalities. You can't catch Fat Bastard from them, but they can catch Covid from you. Possibly some sort of analogy with the way second hand smoke has been targeted over the last 20 years.
Even for someone with lower risk factors, other considerations being that it may be wise to get vaccinated to avoid (a) getting sick, (b) the possibility of being a statistical outlier and getting hammered by it, (c) giving the virus fewer chances to mutate into something nastier, and/or (d) your immune system being prepared if and when one of these mutations does appear locally, or a future Covid mutation gets stronger again.
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Kind of side note as children have been mentioned. From reports a child in my daughter's school fell ill rapidly friday and is now is on a ventilator (covid positive) , that year group are isolating now. Coincidentally my child woke up with a hacking continuous cough yesterday morning which disappeared as quickly as it appeared, her test result came back negative just short of 24hrsthis morning and she's gone in late to school happy as larry.
LOTS of kids off today apparently.My little say on all this is...
- I'm extremely grateful to have the health service we have, we've continuously developed and i truly believe that where we fell short to start with we've pulled it around.
- I get a bit peeved about the focus purely on at risk not at risk, yes we know what data is showing and who are more at risk and these are the people that overwhelm the system. But unfortunately underlying health conditions aren't always obvious and i suspect the child I mentioned is one of those. Which brings me back to having everyone play their part and get vaccinated, it's a team effort because people will suffer and it won't always be the obvious "at risk" groups everyone assumes has been vaccinated.
I highly recommend the jab, I definitely feel like I've been upgraded since my second dose of microchip. 😉
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@r-l I'm definitely pro vax. Don't have a lot of time for the idea that individuals have a choice. It's selfish, pure and simple IMHO
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Awesome responses.
So, can herd immunity be reached by enough of a majority in England that, to Bones's point, the stupid and selfish (BAME people your words not mine😉😛) folks are no longer a threat? Assuming once vaccinated you're all good spreading and contracting wise.
Would that be a reasonable situation or are the numbers of people not wanting a vaccination currently too high.In short, will Britain need to punish non vaxers?
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
Why is it encumbant on me to put something unwanted in my body to save someone who put lots of crap into theirs?
Because it will save someone's life - particularly if they are older. (And the obesity argument is a red herring. You can use the same lifestyle argument for other at-risk groups like train drivers, care workers or hairdressers)
Where does my chain of responsibility end, and theirs begin?
Non sequitur. We are talking about halting the spread of a virus which has killed 120k+ people in a year and not whether people who are obese should improve their health.
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@canefan
You can't make people have it, you'd just hope they'd see the bigger picture. The longer we stay in the covid grip of waves and restrictions people suffer.
I know others have mentioned above but its health, mental health, its people's jobs and businesses etc.
If anyone has a suggestion to get us out of this other than vaccination then I'd love to hear it. -
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l I'm definitely pro vax. Don't have a lot of time for the idea that individuals have a choice. It's selfish, pure and simple IMHO
That's quite a precedent there. It's also one I respect as your decision.
Just for covid or any threat? E.g. War, abstinence from alcohol. I'm guessing it's situation specific just to covid....for now😉 -
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l I'm definitely pro vax. Don't have a lot of time for the idea that individuals have a choice. It's selfish, pure and simple IMHO
That's quite a precedent there. It's also one I respect as your decision.
Just for covid or any threat? E.g. War, abstinence from alcohol. I'm guessing it's situation specific just to covid....for now😉You are grasping. I'll deal with facts. Here is a stat from UK government health site
Of all death occurrences between January and August 2020, there were 48,168 deaths due to the coronavirus (COVID-19) compared with 13,619 deaths due to pneumonia and 394 deaths due to influenza.
To coin a phrase from the original AVx Ferner, it isn't just the flu
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@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan
You can't make people have it, you'd just hope they'd see the bigger picture. The longer we stay in the covid grip of waves and restrictions people suffer.
I know others have mentioned above but its health, mental health, its people's jobs and businesses etc.
If anyone has a suggestion to get us out of this other than vaccination then I'd love to hear it.Great point. It may be a public health issue, but it has far reaching consequences for all health sectors, and most importantly the economy. The UK will be wanting to trg to turn around the 9.9% drop in GDP
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@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
You can't make people have it, you'd just hope they'd see the bigger picture.
This is bang on.
The feature of covid is the first month when the people universally complied with an articulated threat. Then cracks and inconsistencies followed - Ferguson's numbers were high, health spokespeople flaunted lockdown rules, tic toc videos from the nhs were questioned, the lockdown dates kept changing.In my contrary way I'm sceptical that the government's message has satisfies the people adequately enough. I've believed this for all countries. If the kids in class aren't learning the lessons, is it the kid's at fault or the teachers?
I say the teachers and suggest that we had everyone on the same page in the first month and then the teacher's got inconsistent. Sure, some kids learn at different speeds, but any leader with a clear, consistent and coherent plan will get the message across to everyone - just like in March 2020.
I'd love to know how many sceptics exist in Britain right now, and why they're sceptical
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@canefan hang on mate. Are the flu deaths recorded as having had the flu or pneumonia within 28 days? You know what I mean, I hope. We have had heart attacks that are covid deaths. Were there heart attacks that were registered as dying of influenza.
Coronavirus - UK