GOAT
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I've written mine out a few times, and it's just far far too US heavy for my liking. I barely watch US sport these days, so it's rather odd.
Anyway my list is those who either played at the very top for so long, or those at their peak who were/are simply so far ahead of the opposition, it's not funny. I have nobody in my list who I've not seen play so the likes of Bradman, Ali etc aren't in it, even though I know they belong.
Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Serena Williams, Conor McGregor, Michael Phelps, Cristiano Ronaldo, Lance Armstrong (I know, I know ...), Michael Johnson, Usain Bol
And I'm stuck on my 10th. I'm not sure racing drivers are athletes or not, but the records of Hamilton, Schumacher, Loeb, Rossi all stick out as GOAT's. On more NZ centric sports Richie is a nomination, but he was much more a team player / captain than one who truly shone that far above as an athlete. Considered Warne / Muralitharn as well but I'm just not convinced they should be in there. Phil Taylor belongs in many a list yes, but not of athletes ....
Gonna have to keep thinking.
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For motorsort, I'd have to include Valentino Rossi as no.1
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@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
@victor-meldrew said in GOAT:
@victor-meldrew Carl Lewis' chemist, Armstrong's pharmacologist
I thought he (Lewis) was cleared after it was shown any stimulants taken were inadvertent.
I don't believe the United States Olympic Committee (USOC) were particularly harsh in those days regarding positive drug tests.
There was and is a lot of suspicion about the Santa Monica Track Club and their use of hGH.
As to a list, it is hard to compare individual vs team sportspeople, and often lists are clouded by sports you follow.
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I think in my lifetime Mike Tyson was probably the individual so far ahead of his competition.
Wait, no, Usain Bolt.
Well, technically Muhammed Ali was still fighting when I was a youngster, but I never saw or knew of it.
Tyson had a massive fear factor and beat loads of guys before the bell even rung and obviously winning the title at TWENTY years old is fucken unbelievable but he declined pretty quick with the lifestyle, prison term etc. I also read a brilliant article saying that there are/were six fighters who would have beaten Tyson if they fought at their respective bests. I can’t find it but they were Sonny Liston, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis.
If we’re talking the same era it’s tempting to mention Lewis who only lost twice and avenged both of those defeats. His issue I suppose was his cautious ( compared to Tyson ) style probably didn’t endear him to fans like Tysons ferocious style did.
Boxing is hard to measure, so many variables ( era, who they fought, if they fought in their absolute prime etc )
In saying that and as cliche as it is I have to go with Ali.
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It's funny how having a really good rival coinciding with total careers then kinda relegates you in these discussions.
Are Messi and Ronaldo any less than Pele and Maradona?
Trying to pick one of Nadal, Federer, Djokovic.
Tendulkar and Lara. Etc
Etc, etc.
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I'd need a list, but during my lifetime I think there is only one sportsperson who was consistently the best player in the world, transcended their sport in such as way as to make their league a global product, and turned it into an ongoing enterprize in such a way that he is still one of the highest paid sports players ever (nearly 20 years after quitting).
I imagine everyone can name him without clicking the links.
In the 21st century, Brady is my GOATIEST, and I'm not much of football fan (I'm a Cowboys supporter so the last twenty years have sucked).
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I'd need a list, but during my lifetime I think there is only one sportsperson who was consistently the best player in the world, transcended their sport in such as way as to make their league a global product, and turned it into an ongoing enterprize in such a way that he is still one of the highest paid sports players ever (nearly 20 years after quitting).
I imagine everyone can name him without clicking the links.
In the 21st century, Brady is my GOATIEST, and I'm not much of football fan (I'm a Cowboys supporter so the last twenty years have sucked).
I'm going to assume Jordan.
Jordan is a phenom. What he did for the NBA is unreal. A lot of guys owe their enormous wealth to him
Like Tiger in golf.
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@mariner4life said in GOAT:
I'd need a list, but during my lifetime I think there is only one sportsperson who was consistently the best player in the world, transcended their sport in such as way as to make their league a global product, and turned it into an ongoing enterprize in such a way that he is still one of the highest paid sports players ever (nearly 20 years after quitting).
I imagine everyone can name him without clicking the links.
In the 21st century, Brady is my GOATIEST, and I'm not much of football fan (I'm a Cowboys supporter so the last twenty years have sucked).
I'm going to assume Jordan.
Jordan is a phenom. What he did for the NBA is unreal. A lot of guys owe their enormous wealth to him
Like Tiger in golf.
I think I unfairly penalize him for not following through and breaking Nicklaus' record. From 1997 to 2008, he was all of those things, then the fun caught up with him. I loved his win in 2019 too, but I can't put him as the GOAT (he's in the group).
Edit: he'd be on my list for those I've watched in my lifetime.
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@mariner4life said in GOAT:
I'd need a list, but during my lifetime I think there is only one sportsperson who was consistently the best player in the world, transcended their sport in such as way as to make their league a global product, and turned it into an ongoing enterprize in such a way that he is still one of the highest paid sports players ever (nearly 20 years after quitting).
I imagine everyone can name him without clicking the links.
In the 21st century, Brady is my GOATIEST, and I'm not much of football fan (I'm a Cowboys supporter so the last twenty years have sucked).
I'm going to assume Jordan.
Jordan is a phenom. What he did for the NBA is unreal. A lot of guys owe their enormous wealth to him
Like Tiger in golf.
I think I unfairly penalize him for not following through and breaking Nicklaus' record. From 1997 to 2008, he was all of those things, then the fun caught up with him. I loved his win in 2019 too, but I can't put him as the GOAT (he's in the group).
Edit: he'd be on my list for those I've watched in my lifetime.
Sure he didn't pass Jack. But Tiger did as much or more to revolutionise golf as anyone ever. Golfers generally train harder because of Tiger. They make more money because of Tiger. Golf generally used to be very white. Not any more. Now you could argue the game could have become more cosmopolitan on its own. But I think it owes a lot to Tiger
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Surfing thread highjacked. Slater the GOAT of surfing without a doubt. From a shitty shore break of his home turf to still being one of the best at 50. Unbelievable!
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Boxing is hard to measure, so many variables ( era, who they fought, if they fought in their absolute prime etc )
And I think Lewis and Tyson are great examples of this. Lewis is actually older than Tyson but Tyson's peak was the late 80s whereas Lewis peaked 10-15 years later.
Similarly with Holyfield and Tyson - Holyfield beat Tyson twice but by that time Tyson was past his prime and Holyfield was juiced to the gills.
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@mariner4life said in GOAT:
I'd need a list, but during my lifetime I think there is only one sportsperson who was consistently the best player in the world, transcended their sport in such as way as to make their league a global product, and turned it into an ongoing enterprize in such a way that he is still one of the highest paid sports players ever (nearly 20 years after quitting).
I imagine everyone can name him without clicking the links.
In the 21st century, Brady is my GOATIEST, and I'm not much of football fan (I'm a Cowboys supporter so the last twenty years have sucked).
I'm going to assume Jordan.
Jordan is a phenom. What he did for the NBA is unreal. A lot of guys owe their enormous wealth to him
Like Tiger in golf.
I think I unfairly penalize him for not following through and breaking Nicklaus' record. From 1997 to 2008, he was all of those things, then the fun caught up with him. I loved his win in 2019 too, but I can't put him as the GOAT (he's in the group).
Edit: he'd be on my list for those I've watched in my lifetime.
Sure he didn't pass Jack. But Tiger did as much or more to revolutionise golf as anyone ever. Golfers generally train harder because of Tiger. They make more money because of Tiger. Golf generally used to be very white. Not any more. Now you could argue the game could have become more cosmopolitan on its own. But I think it owes a lot to Tiger
All good points, but that's why I said "unfairly".
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@mariner4life caught the tail end of something on Nat Geo the other day where they were.goi g over some of the things that shaped the 80s, and how Nike was pretty small fry when they pitched for Jordan, but his ability and thier marketing sent both the the stratosphere, and Jordan was the fore runner for Tiger in terms of Nike getting on board early offering a shit ton more than the market, and winning.
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@taniwharugby said in GOAT:
@mariner4life caught the tail end of something on Nat Geo the other day where they were.goi g over some of the things that shaped the 80s, and how Nike was pretty small fry when they pitched for Jordan, but his ability and thier marketing sent both the the stratosphere, and Jordan was the fore runner for Tiger in terms of Nike getting on board early offering a shit ton more than the market, and winning.
Jordan, and Nike was a perfect storm. Signing him from college was a masterstroke. I seem to recall that being part of the Sonny Vaccaro documentary. But I might be wrong. It is in Shoe Dogs by Phil Knight
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@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
Boxing is hard to measure, so many variables ( era, who they fought, if they fought in their absolute prime etc )
And I think Lewis and Tyson are great examples of this. Lewis is actually older than Tyson but Tyson's peak was the late 80s whereas Lewis peaked 10-15 years later.
Similarly with Holyfield and Tyson - Holyfield beat Tyson twice but by that time Tyson was past his prime and Holyfield was juiced to the gills.
That Holyfield doco on Netflix is great viewing.
Really sad he tarnished his legacy recently with that farce of a fight he was involved in. Not the first and certainly won’t be the last fighter to do that though.
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@victor-meldrew said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Phil Taylor. 16 world championships, plus carried far more weight to height than most of the above mentioned, 19 stones of dart-pushing momentum on a 5 foot 8 or so frame. Heavier than 6"6' Anthony Joshua at his flabbiest peak.
Edit: I guess my cryptic point is it would be interesting and useful to have some meta-criteria so out there "sports" like darts are considered or not on an equal footing...
That's an interesting point. Someone once said Damon Hill was the greatest development driver he had ever seen in Formula One, who could tune a good car into a truly great one better than anyone, but was an average racing driver.
That's a great skill, but is it a truly sporting skill?
your point is more interesting than mine
It reminds me of that world-famous player or athlete who was famously said to be a great but not particularly good and now I am racking my brain as to who that was, whether that was in cricket or tennis or.. -
@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
Boxing is hard to measure, so many variables ( era, who they fought, if they fought in their absolute prime etc )
And I think Lewis and Tyson are great examples of this. Lewis is actually older than Tyson but Tyson's peak was the late 80s whereas Lewis peaked 10-15 years later.
Similarly with Holyfield and Tyson - Holyfield beat Tyson twice but by that time Tyson was past his prime and Holyfield was juiced to the gills.
That Holyfield doco on Netflix is great viewing.
Really sad he tarnished his legacy recently with that farce of a fight he was involved in. Not the first and certainly won’t be the last fighter to do that though.
Did he take HGH/steroids as well or was that a rumour? Not sure we can call him a great if he can't defeat Kevin Barry in the ring
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@taniwharugby said in GOAT:
@mariner4life caught the tail end of something on Nat Geo the other day where they were.goi g over some of the things that shaped the 80s, and how Nike was pretty small fry when they pitched for Jordan, but his ability and thier marketing sent both the the stratosphere, and Jordan was the fore runner for Tiger in terms of Nike getting on board early offering a shit ton more than the market, and winning.
Iirc from One Last Dance, Jordan wasn't interested in even meeting with Nike and his parents convinced him otherwise. Converse were the big brand at that time.
IMHO GOATS are way too difficult to rank across sports. There are so many different skill-sets, individual sport vs team sport, participation numbers etc. And then even within a sport how do you define the GOAT when the individual members of a team have such different functions? For instance a goalkeeper vs a striker.
Having said that, being able to perform at elite level in your 40s (and at farking 50) is absolutely astonishing. At the very least it gives (false) hope to this 43 year old!
