US Politics



  • @canefan said in US Politics:

    @NTA the bigger question is does the political system want those changes? No evidence to suggest they do

    I'd suggest there's a swamp in need of draining. Maybe Biden can use that slogan in the election?



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    @canefan said in US Politics:

    @NTA the bigger question is does the political system want those changes? No evidence to suggest they do

    I'd suggest there's a swamp in need of draining. Maybe Biden can use that slogan in the election?

    I don't know what it's going to take, the lobby system means all politicians (apart from maybe Bernie) are beholden to big business, so health reform will be tricky for starters



  • Yeah exactly. And Biden isn't really the man to fix any of these problems. His choice of VP will be fascinating though. There will be a real push for him to pick someone young, black/hispanic, and in touch with whatever movement this is.

    But given his age (and his fragile mental state), the choice of VP will take on far greater importance. There will also be a temptation to have a older, safe hand in there who could take the reigns if something happened to old Joe.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    Yeah exactly. And Biden isn't really the man to fix any of these problems. His choice of VP will be fascinating though. There will be a real push for him to pick someone young, black/hispanic, and in touch with whatever movement this is.

    But given his age (and his fragile mental state), the choice of VP will take on far greater importance. There will also be a temptation to have a older, safe hand in there who could take the reigns if something happened to old Joe.

    Hasn't he already committed to a woman VP?



  • @barbarian if the Dems are to beat Trump it will be because Trump galvanized them rather than Biden. He looks old and doddery



  • @Tim Excellent article. Cheers.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    7b296b3d-f053-49c4-9a1f-e8d40bd98403-image.png

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    Well James Woods isn't well mentally.

    For all the partisan ranting, this is a bipartisan policy outcome. Both parties have consciously worked towards the disenfranchisement of the middle class.



  • @antipodean said in US Politics:

    @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    7b296b3d-f053-49c4-9a1f-e8d40bd98403-image.png

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    Well James Woods isn't well mentally.

    For all the partisan ranting, this is a bipartisan policy outcome. Both parties have consciously worked towards the disenfranchisement of the middle class.

    This. Both parties strive to see people as part of seperate groups, and turn those groups on each other.

    Be it race, sexual orientation, views on guns or abortion, whatever.

    Democrats think Republicans are evil, Rebublicans think Democrats are immoral and want to destroy the country. So when horrible things happen like what this cop did, it's like lighting a flame on a powder keg.

    Nobody on either side of the political divides is trying to unite, it's all attack for their own advantage. It's a mess.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    He didn't say they were to blame for this.



  • @Winger said in US Politics:

    @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    He didn't say they were to blame for this.

    Bullshit, that's exactly what he meant by that post. He's part of the problem (as was Obama).



  • @Kirwan total lack of understanding and respect on both sides. It's so bad now that there are large groups that can find zero merit in anything the other says



  • @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    This. Both parties strive to see people as part of seperate groups, and turn those groups on each other.
    Be it race, sexual orientation, views on guns or abortion, whatever.
    Democrats think Republicans are evil, Rebublicans think Democrats are immoral and want to destroy the country. So when horrible things happen like what this cop did, it's like lighting a flame on a powder keg.
    Nobody on either side of the political divides is trying to unite, it's all attack for their own advantage. It's a mess.

    Or perhaps the divide is with the people themselves?

    One group is happy with liberal immigration, outsourcing, chinese imports, etc, and thinks being socially progressive makes them good people. They struggle to understand how anyone could disagree with policies & beliefs that are obviously moral and right. Say, 30% of the population, quite wealthy, pretty much insulated from the effects of the policies they espouse.

    The other group sees too much immigration, cheap imports and economic policy as a threat to their prospects, have seen declining prosperity and who feel left behind and taken for granted. They are far more motivated by economic need than "social justice" and resent being labelled somehow morally inferior for thinking this. Say 30% who feel pretty powerless and ignored.

    The first group isn't going to give up their position of power and moral beliefs without a fight and the latter group aren't going to go away. The US needs serious leaders who want to unify people, but when you look at the political "giants" of the last ten years, the likes of Obama, Trump, Biden and Pelosi come to mind. That pretty much says it all.





  • @Tim said in US Politics:

    Ridiculous. Stuff like that makes a mockery of a serious issue



  • A couple of years old but very relevant



  • @Tim

    Is this for real?



  • @Victor-Meldrew Yeah, the guy's got an hour long video on youtube of doing this stuff.



  • @Tim said in US Politics:

    @Victor-Meldrew Yeah, the guy's got an hour long video on youtube of doing this stuff.

    Holy crap.

    It feel like the US is in some "Social Justice" bubble and has lost all rationality, not unlike a financial bubble.

    Will it go "boom!" sometime?



  • I was a little concerned after Corona but I think the footage of the last few nights settles it.

    Congrats on 4 more years Mr Trump.



  • @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    This. Both parties strive to see people as part of seperate groups, and turn those groups on each other.

    Be it race, sexual orientation, views on guns or abortion, whatever.

    Democrats think Republicans are evil, Rebublicans think Democrats are immoral and want to destroy the country. So when horrible things happen like what this cop did, it's like lighting a flame on a powder keg.

    Nobody on either side of the political divides is trying to unite, it's all attack for their own advantage. It's a mess.

    Yes, totally agree. It's worrying the way this is going in other parts of the world too. Here it's not as bad as the US, but we would be in top 5 for sure. Germany perhaps worse (although you can't read about it), Hong Kong certainly as well at the moment (although less political there, as in any dictatorship).

    Im not sure of the US resolution. The thing is, that before Covid and now this, I would have argued to anybody that Trump was doing a great job - for Americans. Now, I'm not so sure. I do understand his thought process, but sometimes it's not about the message, its' about how you deliver it.

    You start looting, we start shooting ain't ever the right tactic.



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    You start looting, we start shooting ain't ever the right tactic.

    It was

    when the looting starts, the shooting starts

    Trump said he meant this as a factual statement. (he clarified the next day)

    That is when looting starts shooting follows. Either by the looters or others.



  • @Winger said in US Politics:

    @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    You start looting, we start shooting ain't ever the right tactic.

    It was

    when the looting starts, the shooting starts

    Trump said he meant this as a factual statement. (he clarified the next day)

    That is when looting starts shooting follows. Either by the looters or others.

    You can’t honestly tell me you believe that.



  • In 1967, Miami police Chief Walter Headley used the phrase "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" during hearings about crime in the Florida city, invoking angry reactions from civil rights leaders, according to a news report at the time.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/864818368/the-history-behind-when-the-looting-starts-the-shooting-starts

    More complexity around this quote but still up to interpretation



  • @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Qld police are going down that route with the introduction of the vests and have copped criticism for it. The problem is, with all the gear police are expected to carry (Bodyworn camera, radio, cuffs, baton, cap spray, taser, first aid kit, notebook, knife, safety gloves, firearm, spare ammo, torch) you need a vest, otherwise all that shit is crammed around your waist. It gets bloody heavy and can lead to injuries.



  • @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    I was a little concerned after Corona but I think the footage of the last few nights settles it.

    Congrats on 4 more years Mr Trump.

    Mate, this is a truly bizarre attitude and conclusion.



  • @junior said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.

    This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?

    I haven't seen the full video so I am not commenting specifically on this situation, but any use of force used by police can look really bad when you only see part of the interaction.

    I have had many a wrestle with people not wanting to be arrested, even for very minor stuff. I have had a guy "surrender" after I had him pinned to the ground. He even said "I can't breath." I relaxed a little to make things easier for him and guess what? He was back up fighting full on and I copped multiple punches to the head leading to weeks of headaches and stitches in my lip. I haven't made that mistake since. Most cops will have a similar story.

    Sometimes the most effective way to control someone is to control their head. It doesn't look good, but it is effective. Even when people are cuffed, if they are motivated enough they can still cause you damage.

    It is dangerous leaving your bodyweight on someone after a struggle. You need to very closely monitor them to make sure they are good and at least get them in the recovery position as soon as possible. It's a balancing act. You need to keep control of them and ensure your safety as well as make sure they are ok. If they have existing medical conditions, or under the influence of drugs etc, the risk increases, for the one arrested and for the cop.

    Having to use force is shit. There are so many ways it can go wrong.



  • @Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Qld police are going down that route with the introduction of the vests and have copped criticism for it. The problem is, with all the gear police are expected to carry (Bodyworn camera, radio, cuffs, baton, cap spray, taser, first aid kit, notebook, knife, safety gloves, firearm, spare ammo, torch) you need a vest, otherwise all that shit is crammed around your waist. It gets bloody heavy and can lead to injuries.

    There may be practical reasons to wear them. But it shouldn't make you act like John Mclane when you do. Another case of misguided police brutality, this time in the major black city of Atlanta. 6 officers charged

    https://stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300026301/six-us-police-officers-charged-after-young-couple-pulled-from-car



  • Check out the short guy here. He’s loving this.
    Does anyone really think he’s going to serve and protect? 😉



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    This. Both parties strive to see people as part of seperate groups, and turn those groups on each other.

    Be it race, sexual orientation, views on guns or abortion, whatever.

    Democrats think Republicans are evil, Rebublicans think Democrats are immoral and want to destroy the country. So when horrible things happen like what this cop did, it's like lighting a flame on a powder keg.

    Nobody on either side of the political divides is trying to unite, it's all attack for their own advantage. It's a mess.

    Yes, totally agree. It's worrying the way this is going in other parts of the world too. Here it's not as bad as the US, but we would be in top 5 for sure. Germany perhaps worse (although you can't read about it), Hong Kong certainly as well at the moment (although less political there, as in any dictatorship).

    Im not sure of the US resolution. The thing is, that before Covid and now this, I would have argued to anybody that Trump was doing a great job - for Americans. Now, I'm not so sure. I do understand his thought process, but sometimes it's not about the message, its' about how you deliver it.

    You start looting, we start shooting ain't ever the right tactic.

    I would at least have admitted that he wasn't the total disaster I thought he would be. Now he is fast becoming that disaster.



  • @canefan said in US Politics:

    @Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Qld police are going down that route with the introduction of the vests and have copped criticism for it. The problem is, with all the gear police are expected to carry (Bodyworn camera, radio, cuffs, baton, cap spray, taser, first aid kit, notebook, knife, safety gloves, firearm, spare ammo, torch) you need a vest, otherwise all that shit is crammed around your waist. It gets bloody heavy and can lead to injuries.

    There may be practical reasons to wear them. But it shouldn't make you act like John Mclane when you do.

    Easier said than done



  • Regarding all of the military type gear hasn’t there been a problem for quite a long time now that police were given budgets (I think from a federal fund?) for anti-terrorism equipment and have been buying and training with all sorts of OTT stuff that they are itching to use?
    There was a fair bit in the news about it a few years ago.



  • @Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:

    @canefan said in US Politics:

    @Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Qld police are going down that route with the introduction of the vests and have copped criticism for it. The problem is, with all the gear police are expected to carry (Bodyworn camera, radio, cuffs, baton, cap spray, taser, first aid kit, notebook, knife, safety gloves, firearm, spare ammo, torch) you need a vest, otherwise all that shit is crammed around your waist. It gets bloody heavy and can lead to injuries.

    There may be practical reasons to wear them. But it shouldn't make you act like John Mclane when you do.

    Easier said than done

    Must be a very tough job, made harder over there with the high levels of gun possession. But 3 officers watching one officer choke a guy to death over 8 minutes with no obvious signs of resistance all caught on film is a bad look



  • @Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:

    @junior said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.

    This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?

    I haven't seen the full video so I am not commenting specifically on this situation, but any use of force used by police can look really bad when you only see part of the interaction.

    I have had many a wrestle with people not wanting to be arrested, even for very minor stuff. I have had a guy "surrender" after I had him pinned to the ground. He even said "I can't breath." I relaxed a little to make things easier for him and guess what? He was back up fighting full on and I copped multiple punches to the head leading to weeks of headaches and stitches in my lip. I haven't made that mistake since. Most cops will have a similar story.

    Sometimes the most effective way to control someone is to control their head. It doesn't look good, but it is effective. Even when people are cuffed, if they are motivated enough they can still cause you damage.

    It is dangerous leaving your bodyweight on someone after a struggle. You need to very closely monitor them to make sure they are good and at least get them in the recovery position as soon as possible. It's a balancing act. You need to keep control of them and ensure your safety as well as make sure they are ok. If they have existing medical conditions, or under the influence of drugs etc, the risk increases, for the one arrested and for the cop.

    Having to use force is shit. There are so many ways it can go wrong.

    Thanks for the perspective. You guys have a tough job, that's for sure.



  • @canefan totally agree looks bad.

    I have only seen part of the incident, has the whole the whole incident from start to finish been released?



  • @Crucial

    Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)

    The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
    The problem was accelerated when old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc got sold to police forces.



  • @Duluth said in US Politics:

    @Crucial

    Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)

    The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
    The problem was accelerated with old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc getting sold to police forces.

    On the flip side, you need the police equipped to deal with situations in a timely and effective manner, and they may need the military type tools to do this.



  • @Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:

    @Duluth said in US Politics:

    @Crucial

    Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)

    The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
    The problem was accelerated with old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc getting sold to police forces.

    On the flip side, you need the police equipped to deal with situations in a timely and effective manner, and they may need the military type tools to do this.

    It’s the whole escalation of equipment argument though. Just like gun control where having a rifle to hunt with has escalated to having automatic assault weapons.
    Military weapons are designed for war not for policing. They were buying up things like armoured personnel carriers.
    They have also gone from specialists, such as SWAT teams to equipping barely trained cowboys with enough gear to take down a small country.



  • @antipodean as astonished at the first autopsy indicating it wasn't due to suffocation?



  • @Crucial and what else are you going to do with all that gear that was found wanting during overseas conflicts etc? bring it home, paint it black and yeee fucking haaa!!



  • @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:

    @Duluth said in US Politics:

    @Crucial

    Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)

    The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
    The problem was accelerated with old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc getting sold to police forces.

    On the flip side, you need the police equipped to deal with situations in a timely and effective manner, and they may need the military type tools to do this.

    They have also gone from specialists, such as SWAT teams to equipping barely trained cowboys with enough gear to take down a small country.

    Are you talking about the US?

    Re military style weapons for the police. Qld have introduced them on a limited scale to trained officers, meaning some patrols cars will be carrying them. NZ appears to be the same. This is so police have some sort of ability to respond to an active shooter. Even though we carry side arms, they are only useful up to 20 metres if you are a good shot. Useless against someone carrying a rifle. Police cannot afford to lose any use of force situations, let alone ones involving an active shooter.

    Police need to be better equipped than the offenders. I guess it's an arms race...


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