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@canefan said in US Politics:
His conduct so far is not surprising and pretty alarming. Forget getting information from the relevant government departments before making decisions the Trump camp is going off the reservation
Its alarming because he is making huge fuck ups by not briefing.
EG he puts the imigration plan in place without running it through the usual processes & its immediately partially rolled in 4 federal courts, American allies lose their shit, the entire US tech industry - who were on side, are now up in arms.
He doesn't bother fully briefing on the Yemen attack - and relies on Bannon & Kusner to advise, & its a fucking disaster
He doesn't brief ahead of a call with his closest ally (Aussie) and hangs up on him in a hissy fit
He doesn't brief ahead of tweeting about Mexico & the meeting Kushner has spent weeks organising falls apart
These are all bad, but not terrible, because he's fucking up with allies (tho' the dead SEALs family maybe wont be stoked), its when he doesn't brief ahead of Iran, Russia, North Korea its gets bad. He'll he did it re China & Taiwan...
Its not off reservation, its gross incompetence.
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@gollum said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
His conduct so far is not surprising and pretty alarming. Forget getting information from the relevant government departments before making decisions the Trump camp is going off the reservation
Its alarming because he is making huge fuck ups by not briefing.
EG he puts the imigration plan in place without running it through the usual processes & its immediately partially rolled in 4 federal courts, American allies lose their shit, the entire US tech industry - who were on side, are now up in arms.
**He doesn't bother fully briefing on the Yemen attack - and relies on Bannon & Kusner to advise, & its a fucking disaster
**
He doesn't brief ahead of a call with his closest ally (Aussie) and hangs up on him in a hissy fitHe doesn't brief ahead of tweeting about Mexico & the meeting Kushner has spent weeks organising falls apart
These are all bad, but not terrible, because he's fucking up with allies (tho' the dead SEALs family maybe wont be stoked), its when he doesn't brief ahead of Iran, Russia, North Korea its gets bad. He'll he did it re China & Taiwan...
Its not off reservation, its gross incompetence.
Not sure that comment is fully correct. Reports were that SecDef Jim Mattis was in on the approval and there is no way he would have OK'd things without being briefed.
What has happened though is that the int was either incorrect, not up to date or was not available and a calculated risk was taken. Mattis may be a cut and dried, black and white, hard nut but he values good intelligence before risking lives.
This is totally not abnormal. Not everything can be known about everything all the time despite what is seen in the movies.
A brief would have almost certainly have been done. My guess is that the risk barrier was lowered a bit by Trumps team and it didn't work out well. -
Times, Guardian & FT all reporting this -
Both the New York Times and Reuters carried quotes from unnamed military officials that seemed to shift blame for the mission to Trump and his inner team. It would be an extraordinary development for a president, who is commander-in-chief, to be briefed against in such detail.
US military officials told Reuters that Trump approved his first covert counterterrorism operation without sufficient intelligence, ground support or adequate backup preparations.
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@Frank said in US Politics:
@gollum
Do you think Hillary will be in trouble with the emails and/or the Clinton Foundation gollum?Nope, Same reason she wasn't prosecuted over Benghazi despite an never ending congressional & senate investigation with every power at their disposal. Same reason she wasn't charged with Vince Fosters death. Same reason she's not been prosecuted for anything. Because the stuff against her is delusional bullshit believed by idiots.
But now, of course, we get to find out. Because Trump promised to lock her up (before then saying obv he wouldn't because that was a lie believed only by delusional retards). His AG can do anything he wants (clearly given they are already pushing the constitution), and Congress & the Senate have the power to do it. Comey is still ready to go & wants to.
Literally ZERO stands between her & justice. Except the fact she didn't do anything... So all that utter bullshit posted & written about her criminality & the proof gets to be tested, with nothing at all to stop it.
Hell, even the Goldmans stuff, Trump has 3 GS guys in his team, they can tell him directly.
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@gollum said in US Politics:
Times, Guardian & FT all reporting this -
Both the New York Times and Reuters carried quotes from unnamed military officials that seemed to shift blame for the mission to Trump and his inner team. It would be an extraordinary development for a president, who is commander-in-chief, to be briefed against in such detail.
US military officials told Reuters that Trump approved his first covert counterterrorism operation without sufficient intelligence, ground support or adequate backup preparations.
From the Guardian link
"The mission was approved over dinner five days after the presidential inauguration by Trump and his closest advisers, including his son-in-law Jared Kushner and his special adviser and former Breitbart executive Stephen Bannon, as well as defence secretary General Jim Mattis. "
The comments about insufficient int are comments that would be totally expected when things go wrong. It's basically saying that in retrospect they should have re-run existing int before making the decision.
One way of looking at this is that it is up to the int analysts to keep things up to date for short notice use and if they were wrong they are now pointing fingers saying 'you should have checked we had done our jobs properly'. If this is the case I guess DIA is having strips torn off it by Mattis.
Another way to look at it is that they are saying 'you could see the age if the int but took the punt'. That's normal though. Risks are always present as int is not 100% relied on as correct.
What I am guessing is that Mattis would have laid out the risk assessment and explained the levels of risk on various actions. If Trump and Co chose a higher risk level than proved to be prudent then that is his perogative as Commander in Chief.
To say Trump called the raid without briefing would (I think) be totally false.
Mattis would not even go into that meeting without a briefing. It's what the military do. Brief, brief, brief.
If the quality of the briefing is (probably rightly) in question, that finger must be pointed at those that made it.
The third option is that the briefing said they need more assessment time because things weren't up to date and everyone ignored it or Trump over ruled Mattis.
If that last option were correct you will see a resignation by Mattis coming. He would feel he hadn't done (or wasn't allowed to do) his job correctly and lives were lost. -
My reading on it (and the implication) is Mattis breifed, just as the JCOS's had briefed Obama on the same raid. Said "we don't have enough intelligence". Obama deferred to his military advice. Trump did not.
If Mattis breifed badly thats on Mattis. Tho' that seems unlikley given Mattis rep. If Mattis laid it out clearly & Trump ignored him - or even skipped the full brief, thats bad.
Given he replaced the JCOS & the Director of Nat. Intelligence on the Nat. Securioty council with Bannon I'm leaning towards buying the idea Mattis breifed & was either ignore or cut off.
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Most presidents use EO's to get laws passed when Congress & the Senate refuse to do so. EG during the shutdownm or when the opposition party contril them & won't work with you. Or they tend to be orders to demand a review of something - IE they are not substantive, they are the President saying "thus needs looking at". They are window dressing.
Obama massively enhanced (overstepped) by passing genuine law by EO far more than, say, Bush. Left argue he had an obstructionist congress who stopped all passage - eg when Ted Cruz read "Green Eggs And Ham" in congress to halt a bill (no really). The right would say he bypassed the job of congress - to pass laws. Both are right. Obama was abysmall at bipartisanship.
The issue with Trump is he is passing HUGE laws by EO, with a fully compliant congress & senate.
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From the Spinoff. A bit of humour after the Turnbull call wondering what the Bill English call may go like....
Reports of the US president haranguing and hanging up on Australian PM Malcolm Turnbull must have sent convulsions of excitement and/or tooth-pulling terror around the NZ PM’s office. Here’s how the English-Trump chat might go.
Executive assistant to the President: Mr President, you are now with Prime Minister English.
President Donald J Trump: You said it was the guy from New Zealand.
Executive assistant: This is Bill English, prime minister of New Zealand, sir.
Trump: OK, OK. Listen, Bill, believe me, this is going to be the best call, the best call, on the telephone, one of the best calls.
Prime Minister Bill English: Hello, Mr President. On behalf of the people of New Zealand, congratulations on your inauguration as president of the United States.
Trump: So, OK, yes. Yes. You watched it, it was terrific, nothing like it, you watched it. How many people in New Zealand, how many people?
English: Ah. At the 2013 census, the population was recorded as four million, two hundred and forty thousand, and forty-eight. However, Department of Statistics figures –
Trump: Great. Wonderful. Sean! Forty eight million people, in New Zealand, they watched the inauguration. Write that down. Write it down, Sean, write it. Write it. Forty. Eight. Million. This is the best call. New Zealand is the greatest country. Tremendous respect for New Zealand, tremendous respect. The greatest. You are doing amazing work in New Zealand.
English: Ah, thank you Mr President.
Trump: I went to Auckland one time, I have it written here, they write it down here, on the desk, I have it written down, it’s the biggest desk, the biggest desk, believe me. I went to Auckland one time, and I liked it a lot. Terrific people, really terrific, you seem like a terrific guy. I like New Zealand but not so much Australia, not so much Australia, by the way. I’m saying Australia, Australia, Australia is not New Zealand, Australia is Fake New Zealand, am I right, that’s what I’m saying. Fake New Zealand. And by the way I have to tell you that Australian president, what is he, Malcolm Trumble, actually, he is something else, he is, I have to tell you this, and by the way I call him Crocodile Dumb-dee, I call him that because he wants to put bad dudes, so many bad dudes, Obama did the deal, it is dumb, so dumb, listen to this because I’m saying it’s dumb, this is the biggest desk you’ll ever see, like a palace, practically like a planet.
English: Ah.
Trump: You just had an election, right, how’d it go, go OK?
English: We have just announced an election, to be held in September, Mr President.
Trump: OK, OK, I get it, that’s OK. Listen, I like you, you seem nice, I’ll send you some of my books, Sean, send the New Zealand guy some books, some whatever, you know, he needs to win an election, he wants help, I like to help, by the way, no one loves helping more than Donald Trump. I tell you one thing right now, right now, New Zealand First. You need to say: New Zealand First.
English: Interesting.
Trump: I like chicken. You like chicken? Sean!
English: Mr President –
Trump: You meet Theresa May?
English: Yes, Mr President, I had the pleasure –
Trump: I met her, nice lady. I’ve met a lot of people, so many people, the nicest people, not so much the Mexicans, the bad hombres. You have any bad hombres? Not so good, not so nice. Believe me, not good. China, not so much. China. China. No one loves China more than Donald Trump. Meryl Streep, so over-rated, the worst, dishonest. Sad, actually. Arnold Schwarzenegger, a total disaster, a total disaster. You get Arnold Schwarzenegger in Greenland?
English: I –
Trump: Somebody said I took the Martin Luther King statue out of my office, and it turned out that was fake news. Fake news. And by the way, failing CNN. Failing NBC. China. Listen, nuclear ships, what is this, nuclear ships, it says here we’re sending some nuclear ships, nuclear-powered ships, to New Zealand. That’s what we’re going to do.
DONALD TRUMP AND BILL ENGLISH IN CONVERSATION WITH OTHER PEOPLE. IMAGES: GETTY/TWITTER
English: Well. If you’ll allow me to –
Unidentified voice: дерьмо, пожалуйста, поторопитесь!
Trump: So many ships, big ships, we have the biggest ships, you have water everywhere, all around your country, it’s really wonderful, I think it’s really wonderful, water, all around, the ships go in the water, they go, whatever it is they do, they go float, float, like a, what, like a duck in a bath, believe me, like a duck in a bath, we have so many baths here, so many baths.
English: Mr President –
Trump: Chicken.
English: If I could be clear –
Trump: One more thing, OK, because this is the best call, but I have other calls, I have spoken to many leaders, I have spoken to Mr Putin, I have spoken to Miss May, she seems a very nice lady, she isn’t the Queen, I like the Queen, she is just terrific. I have spoken to so many leaders, some of the best calls, but I have to say this, to you, and your name is Bill, that’s your name, you know, you get it, right, and you have a terrific country, so many mountains, and I love the mountains, I have many, and the people are terrific, I love people, I have many people, and Peter Thiel, you know Peter, smart guy, good with computers, internet, all of it, computers, internet, very smart guy, one of the smartest, he says I should get a citizenship there, he says I can have an island, he says South Island is the best island, I need that island, so I need South Island, islands are the greatest, give it to me.
English: Ah.
Trump: Believe me, this has been the best call, the greatest, terrific. You are a great man, a great man, a nice man. Sean! I need some fried chicken. Chicken. Sean!
Click.
Executive Assistant: That went well, actually. Best call yet.
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The White House turned off its recording equipment during President Donald Trump’s call with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Following the call with Putin on Saturday, the Kremlin published a readout of the hour-long conversation that suggested the Russian president was pleased with Trump’s tone. “During the conversation, both sides expressed their readiness to make active joint efforts to stabilise and develop Russia-US cooperation on a constructive, equitable and mutually beneficial basis,” the Kremlin statement said.
But while the Kremlin produced a detailed 10-paragraph readout of the call, the White House released only a vague one-paragraph statement saying that Trump received a “congratulatory call from Russian President Vladimir Putin.” During a Wednesday forum on Russian-Turkish relations at the Bipartisan Policy Center, Berman suggested that the White House could not provide additional details about the call because staff had disabled recording equipment, according to Turkish journalist Ilhan Tanir.
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@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback alternate facts is 2017s new line.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@canefan not misrepresent, alternate.
There are so many alternate facts flying around from all sides..... the media is a mess.
It's one thing to slant the facts; something the left leaning MSM do more and more. It is another thing entirely to make shit up
The left wing media like CNN also blatantly make stuff up. There are numerous examples.
US Politics