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@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here. -
This analysis makes several arguments. First, far-right terrorism has significantly outpaced terrorism from other types of perpetrators, including from far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda. Right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years. Right-wing extremists perpetrated two thirds of the attacks and plots in the United States in 2019 and over 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020. Second, terrorism in the United States will likely increase over the next year in response to several factors. One of the most concerning is the 2020 U.S. presidential election, before and after which extremists may resort to violence, depending on the outcome of the election. Far-right and far-left networks have used violence against each other at protests, raising the possibility of escalating violence during the election period.
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.Exactly. We are not talking about just any building, it is the seat of federal power in the USA. And it does not appear to have been some smash and grab raid, those people were hanging around for ages, taking photos in the offices and chambers among other things. And yet the response from authorities could be described as flaccid
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.I agree and I think I've said that before.
But the things that would concern me if I was an American, is the way Biden & co. have immediately used it to foster division by claiming one side of the culture war were hard done by the police, and what that bodes for the future of US politics.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.I agree and I think I've said that before.
But the things that would concern me if I was an American, is the way Biden & co. have immediately used it to foster division by claiming one side of the culture war were hard done by the police, and what that bodes for the future of US politics.
Even if it were true? I'll say it again, if it was a black mob behaving the same way there are multiple shots fired and a shit ton of riot police onsite really quick. And now a policeman died from his wounds sustained at the protest
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.I agree and I think I've said that before.
But the things that would concern me if I was an American, is the way Biden & co. have immediately used it to foster division by claiming one side of the culture war were hard done by the police, and what that bodes for the future of US politics.
Even if it were true? I'll say it again, if it was a black mob behaving the same way there are multiple shots fired and a shit ton of riot police onsite really quick
I'm agreeing with you. The police response needs to be investigated.
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America was built, in no small part, on the backs of slave labour. They have a long history of institutionalised racism towards black Americans. Regardless of how difficult the situation is authorities and white Americans need to at least act with a little sympathy to that history
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@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Peaceful protests?
Seems to depend on which side you are on.
Big concern would be Antifa & BLM fruitcakes now kicking off thinking they have Biden & Harris's support.
That's a disgusting statement. Reading this made my skin crawl.
I think you are confusing legitimate concerns of African Americans with the organisation called BLM. Because the later has serious problems, not least being have anti-Semitic leaders.
And Antifa are violent scum.
Respectfully, I disagree. To me, both causes have very legitimate concerns. Sure, the BLM has some issues but at its heart, it is attempting to bring to the fore the fact of systemic racism including that within many police departments in the U.S.
Also, IMHO, ATIFA are not an organisation as such but it certainly stands against Fascism and white supremacy, both of which are appalling. And quite frankly, they are the result of the rise of violent right wing extremism which is far, far more dangerous.
Antifa are the most ironically named organisation. Actual fascists and shown over and over to be violent thugs.
Again, respectfully disagree. ATIFA = Anti-Fascist and that's exactly what they are. They rose up as an organic response and counter to the growing right wing extremism. They show up as a counter protesters to the right wing nut jobs and I have all the respect in the world for that.
Clearly, the real "violent thugs" that present a real and present danger is the real fascists, the right wing, white nationalists and supremacists. Groups like the Proud Boys and many many others are a far greater threat, it's why the FBI has labeled right wing nationalism/white supremacy as being a much greater risk.
Stop your nonsense.
Joe Biden clearly stated, in a presidential debate that "Anitfa are an idea not a movement"He makes it clear that they are not an organisation, so listen to the president elect and cease your scare mongering.
I should know, I have them as my avatar!
End of story
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Most alarming are the accusations that many off-duty police and guards were in the group and one of the possible reasons they were let in so easily. We shall see if that is true and how it pans out.
Fascism, amazing how riled up people get about a topic that few people can agree on defining. Even worse if you have wheat intolerance, I suppose. -
@canefan said in US Politics:
@JC speaking of crimes, a mob of white people stormed the Capitol, the most important political building at the heart of the federal government of the USA, to try and disrupt the counting of the college ballots. They walked off with stuff, sat in the speaker of the house's chair, walked into representatives' offices. And what was the police response? No tear gas? No riot police? I want someone to say with a straight face that the outcome would have been the same if the protestors were black
A woman was shot and died?
The real issue seems to be that, unlike the BLM / ANTIFA marches, the police here were significantly outnumbered and completely under prepared. I also didn't see protesters here with guns, molotov cocktails or throwing rocks, shouting "kill all pigs", which may give some explanation for the lack of heavy-handedness
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
Fascism, amazing how riled up people get about a topic that few people can agree on defining. Even worse if you have wheat intolerance, I suppose.
It's very easy. I'll explain with an example.
At the BLM protests in London, after Churchill's statue was attacked, there were groups of fascists protecting an anti-facisist's statue from being attacked by a group of anti-fascists who believed the statue was of a fascist and not an anti-fascist.
Hope that's clear...
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Let us ask some historians from India then. Or perhaps Mussolini, who he visited and praised in 1927(after visiting Italy in 1924) and later appeared to support him during the invasion of Ethiopia (Abyssinia).
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The problem with BLM and Antifa is they are too extreme.
You keep seeing these ridiculous situations where white people would be screaming at black people calling them white supremacists because they are police officers. White people trashing black owned businesses while the black owners look on in horror, all in the name of "Black Lives Mattering". Black cops killed in cold blood during one of these protests that had turned into a riot.
Or you had all of those calls to defund the police, which were not supported at all by the general population both black and white. In fact black people were polled and overwhelmingly responded in favour of more policing in their area, not less.
There is a noble cause there for sure, blind freddy can see the problems with racism in the States (and in fact all over the world) especially when it comes to unequal treatment from police. But the rhetoric coming from those groups is just way over the top; instead of trying to address these issues most of them just want to burn it all down.
I am extremely sympathetic to the cause, my wife is black and she/we have certainly encountered our fair share of racists. But some perspective helps; racists are in the minority today, and the system is not rigged against black people. Far from it, we've come a long long way in the last 50 years to make sure this is not the case anymore, and while there is work to do to continue to improve things suddenly declaring the whole system is systemically racist and set up to benefit only white people, and so must be dismantled, is insane and does far more damage to the cause than good.
There is also the underlying 'Critical Race Theory' that many of these groups adhere to as well, coming from the Humanities departments of universities. This in essence teaches that white people are inherently racist no matter what, and that they must work hard to atone for their sin of being white. It's a theory that hypes up race as the defining characteristic of a human being and is one of the most destructive ideologies going around right now when it comes to damaging race relations. The white supremacists jump all over it as it helps their cause big time. It's essentially fighting fire with fire instead of pouring cold water all over the idea that race is the most important thing about you.
So in summary, we shouldn't let the extremist dictate the terms on either side. The majority of people are not racist, and society is moving in the right direction. While any rise in far right white supremacy should be taken seriously and dealt with in no uncertain terms, that doesn't mean we should throw our support behind far left groups that hijack the cause to push their own extreme views.
I'm increasingly concerned that people (not on here, this is a great debate) are thinking they need to pick a side and then it becomes a case of "you're either with us or against us". That sort of binary makes no sense in the real world where issues are extremely complex and require a lot of nuanced analysis to understand properly.
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.Because there weren’t enough police.
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@JC the police chief has resigned.
They said thier intelligence had them prepared for a peaceful protest or march, not what happened.
TBF would they have ever anticipated an attack like what transpired on the heart of the US? If they had double the cops would that have altered things? Would it maybe have resulted in more clashes and violence as opposed to what was mostly theft and destruction (aside from the unfortunate death)
Once these people interpreted Trumps comments about fighting as civil unrest, these people were like a pack of animals.
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@taniwharugby I don’t know the answers to those questions TR. But the narrative that is being thrown around that this was soft peddled by the feds is wide of the mark. The Democrat mayor made the call not t9 have more police. Tear gas was used. Police officers’ guns were drawn and used, resulting in the death of at least one of the rioters.
The comparison with the BLM protests is odious and the arguments that law enforcement looked the other way is a bit early. They are still actively looking for the rioters, it’s not over yet. Is the yardstick being used that these people should have been shot dead summarily because that’s what happens to rioters? Because there were apparently 570 odd BLM protests over 100 days. 1 person was killed by police in all that time. That’s exactly the number that was killed by police in an hour at the Capitol.
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@junior said in US Politics:
A woman was shot and died?
Yes. She was white (or certainly looks it). Ashli Babbitt, ex military.
The police also did use tear gas and more police did arrive as reinforcements apparently, with riot gear. I think it was one of them that shot her. So not sure where some of the comments above are coming from?I don't think that the response would have been terribly different if any other group was doing this. That is a purely hypothetical question and I'm not sure why it is being asked. It is all speculation.
Were they unprepared? It would appear so. Should they have done more? Possibly (there is some footage of them removing barricades) but would it have made a difference? An angry mob is an angry mob I would say and the police with limited resources did what they could against a riotous group.
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@JC that wasnt really directed at you, I just replied to your post.
I dont think any response would be seen as the right one, massive police presence may have resulted in more violence, maybe it would have remained a peaceful one, but I'm not so sure, these people seemed intent on destruction, I dunno if those who have been caught on camera stealing podiums, flags etc were locals, but there are reports people had flown across the country to 'protest' surely some of these people were intent on wreaking havoc regardless.
Is just such a fucked situation that a world power like the US is in a state of turmoil that would usually see the US looking to step in to restore order, especially since there is oil and WMDs and an unstable leader there
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@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@JC that wasnt really directed at you, I just replied to your post.
I dont think any response would be seen as the right one, massive police presence may have resulted in more violence, maybe it would have remained a peaceful one, but I'm not so sure, these people seemed intent on destruction, I dunno if those who have been caught on camera stealing podiums, flags etc were locals, but there are reports people had flown across the country to 'protest' surely some of these people were intent on wreaking havoc regardless.
Is just such a fucked situation that a world power like the US is in a state of turmoil that would usually see the US looking to step in to restore order, especially since there is oil and WMDs and an unstable leader there
Ashli Babbit, the women shot, had flown from LA
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