Flag
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Frankly being a bit of a traditionalist I was not initially a fan of changing the flag.<br><br>
And I still feel the process is arse about face. Perhaps the question should have been "do you want to change?" And then proceed with the process to find the alternative.<br><br>
Anyway it's down to 40.<br><a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/">https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/</a><br><br>
What's people's opinions?<br>
Should we change?<br>
Which do you like?<br><br>
I'm a fan of this one:<br><img src="https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/2166-kyle-lockwood-silver-fern-nz-flag-final-cr-1.png" alt="2166-kyle-lockwood-silver-fern-nz-flag-f"> -
<p>Your choice is probably the one I like the best. Retains many of the features of the current flag with the silver fern thrown in</p>
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<p>I think if they asked if we wanted the change most would have said 'no' without really exploring our options, this way there is a proper..if not incredibly costly debate.</p>
<p>I'm for the change, also like the Kyle Lockwood design except I prefer the other colour variations,red/black as a nod toward Maori</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2170'>https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2170</a></p>
<p>or blue/black representing the Pacific ocean</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2172'>https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2172</a></p>
<p>Veitchy on Sport put up a colour option I liked even more than the above but unfortunately it didn't make the 40</p>
<p><img src="https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11822305_899354410101272_2488426093772974481_n.jpg?oh=3cacbd410c99aa4727e9c3252dde1bd0&oe=564A7AF7" alt="11822305_899354410101272_248842609377297"></p> -
<p>This designer didnt go to a hell of a lot of effort,</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/27819'>https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/27819</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="507632" data-time="1439296757"><p>
I think if they asked if we wanted the change most would have said 'no' without really exploring our options, this way there is a proper..if not incredibly costly debate.<br>
I'm for the change, also like the Kyle Lockwood design except I prefer the other colour variations,red/black as a nod toward Maori<br><a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2170">https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2170</a><br>
or blue/black representing the Pacific ocean<br><a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2172">https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2172</a><br>
Veitchy on Sport put up a colour option I liked even more than the above but unfortunately it didn't make the 40<br><img src="https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11822305_899354410101272_2488426093772974481_n.jpg?oh=3cacbd410c99aa4727e9c3252dde1bd0&oe=564A7AF7" alt="11822305_899354410101272_248842609377297"></p></blockquote>Those colours remind me of those terrible BCs uniforms from the Fleming era<br>
I saw Booboo's choice with black in the upper left instead of red, that's pretty smart too -
<p>I picked the one Booboo went for as well. Not because it appeases various parties but because it looks good, nods to the past and present etc. </p>
<p>Black or mainly black flags simply don't look good from a distance and the classic Silver Fern white on black loses everything when hanging on an upright pole.</p>
<p>I think I like the RWB one with the fern as it shows a breakaway from being a 'colony' of the UK, maintains the history of those colours and adds a recognisable symbol.</p>
<p>I also really like a few of the others as designs but being complete changes from any flag progression I think they are a step too far.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My final 3 would be the one Booboo linked too, the red, white and black version of the same, and this one</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/20512-cayford-crayford-flag-14-v1.jpg'>https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/20512-cayford-crayford-flag-14-v1.jpg</a></p> -
<p>Read an excellent comment on facebook regarding the 40 shortlisted designs.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"These all look like logo options for a provincial freight company done by the owners son"</p> -
<p>Surprisngly (for me) I prefer a few of them with the Koru.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The thing I don't like about the one you're a fan of, booboo is that for some reasoon it reminds me of Labour v National instead of what it is intended to represent.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm also happy for status quo.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="507689" data-time="1439331339">
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<p>Read an excellent comment on facebook regarding the 40 shortlisted designs.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"These all look like logo options for a provincial freight company done by the owners son"</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Great quip, but in reality don't most flags?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Our current one is basically a blue flag with 4 stars and the 'standard at the time' indicator that we were part of the old empire.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the silly 'we fought under that flag' comments, sorry but others before you fought under other flags for the same cause. The current flag is not our first. Besides, show me the photos of NZ troops fighting under an NZ flag. I can't recall seeing many. It's hardly iconic.</p>
<p>Hopefully those that fought for our country also fought for our freedom including the freedom to change, adapt and evolve under our own steam. That includes changing the flag if we want to.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="507692" data-time="1439331836"><p>
Surprisngly (for me) I prefer a few of them with the Koru.<br><br>
The thing I don't like about the one you're a fan of, booboo is that for some reasoon it reminds me of Labour v National instead of what it is intended to represent.<br><br>
I'm also happy for status quo.</p></blockquote>
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That's a good point, I prefer the red and black anyway the blue is a link to the old flag . -
Unless the new flag is a silver fern with a black background they should bloody leave it alone. Those alternative flags look like something school kids would create using Microsoft Paint.
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<p>I'm with Rancid, Silver Fern on black for me - after all it's the flag most associated with NZ these days.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Although TBH that one posted by Rembrandt is not as ugly as all the other options - I think it's the black that helps it.</p> -
<p>Sooo what is the actual point of changing the flag? Do advocates of changing the flag support NZ becoming a republic?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Personally I don't really like any of the designs. The one Rembrandt posted looks pretty good, but didn't make the top 40. And we don't even get to vote on the top 40, it will be reduced to the top 4.</p> -
I just like the current one.
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<p>Unimpressive bunch of flags, although I favour red and black over any other colour scheme if only it means we can all sing that Les Miserables song.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I've always favoured changing the flag but I don't want us having to change it 20 years down the road because we realised our options were lacking/boring in 2015.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Personally I've always liked the Tino Rangatiratanga flag. Yeah some don't like the politics linked with it but fuck it, it's a cool flag.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/images/maori-national-flag.gif?itok=2vUNwQv5" alt="maori-national-flag.gif?itok=2vUNwQv5"></p> -
I'm with RS and Nepia. I'd prefer the black flag with a silver fern, and fuck how it looks on a pole. <br>
(I'd also approve of a black fern on a white flag, and the red/blue one is better than what we currently have). -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Sneakdefreak" data-cid="507741" data-time="1439345023">
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<p>Unimpressive bunch of flags, although I favour red and black over any other colour scheme if only it means we can all sing that Les Miserables song.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I've always favoured changing the flag but I don't want us having to change it 20 years down the road because we realised our options were lacking/boring in 2015.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Personally I've always liked the Tino Rangatiratanga flag. Yeah some don't like the politics linked with it but fuck it, it's a cool flag.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/images/maori-national-flag.gif?itok=2vUNwQv5" alt="maori-national-flag.gif?itok=2vUNwQv5"></p>
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<p>I think it is a hideous flag!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Funny thing is, when in Rotorua, I never met one Maori that that recognised it as "their flag"</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="507738" data-time="1439344598">
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<p>I just like the current one.</p>
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<p>Same here.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I am also indifferent about the need for change.</p> -
<p>I was indifferent too, until I saw some of these designs - some of them are fantastic, and I know this sounds like bullshit, but I actually feel more patriotic towards the country just by looking at them. This is my favourite. A nod to the past, a nod to now and in a modern colour scheme. Beautiful.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2172'>https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/2172</a></p> -
<p>I don't know what it is but I actually have something against have a sporting identity as representitive of our entire nation.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know it is a big part of us but I don't identify NZ being the land of sports, which is what the fern means to me</p> -
<p>Yes, I agree with that in principle. However, when I saw the designs, I did feel they represented the country much more. And lets face it, what proportion of the time you see the NZ flag, would it be related to srporting</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also can see the point of how war vets fought for that flag - well, for the union jack at least, and can see how this may upset.</p> -
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<p> </p>
<p>Funny thing is, when in Rotorua, I never met one Maori that that recognised it as "their flag"</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>For some reason the "when in Rotorua" gave me the giggles :)<br>
</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="507761" data-time="1439350404"><p>I don't know what it is but I actually have something against have a sporting identity as representitive of our entire nation.<br><br>
I know it is a big part of us but I don't identify NZ being the land of sports, which is what the fern means to me</p></blockquote>
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I agree. However I'm not sure that the Southern Cross is what is representative of NZ either. <br><br>
are there Kiwis looking up into the night sky seeing the stars and getting this overwhelming feeling of patriotism
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="507761" data-time="1439350404">
<div>
<p>I don't know what it is but I actually have something against have a sporting identity as representitive of our entire nation.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know it is a big part of us but I don't identify NZ being the land of sports, which is what the fern means to me</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I agree with this. But I agree with the need to differentiate our flag from Australia's (union jack + southern cross). Our identify NZ as being like Australia, but a bit a different.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="507769" data-time="1439353165">
<div>
<p>I agree. However I'm not sure that the Southern Cross is what is representative of NZ either.<br><br>
are there Kiwis looking up into the night sky seeing the stars and getting this overwhelming feeling of patriotism :)</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>No more like "I think its those stars over there.......or it could be those ones........isn't there one called the pointer or something?".</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="507761" data-time="1439350404"><p>I don't know what it is but I actually have something against have a sporting identity as representitive of our entire nation.<br>
<br>
I know it is a big part of us but I don't identify NZ being the land of sports, which is what the fern means to me</p></blockquote>The fern, along with the Kiwi, are to me the two most prominent icons of our country. If the Canadians can have the maple leaf why not the fern? -
<p>I actually don't get why people don't want to take the opportunity to change our dated and meaningless flag. It isn't like this chance is going to come up whenever we want it. I'm supporting change despite it being a Johnkey vanity project because if we don't we'll continue to be stuck with the flag of another country stuck in the corner of our flag.</p>
<p>This is a chance to show an identity of our own.</p>
<p>Thinking about the options, the one with the black in the corner is looking better and better. It is actually quite striking and in a way is very relevant, showing a new country emerging from its colonial past.</p>
<p>My approach to this has always been that if a good option comes up then I'll vote for it.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="507718" data-time="1439340671">
<div>
<p>Sooo what is the actual point of changing the flag? Do advocates of changing the flag support NZ becoming a republic?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Personally I don't really like any of the designs. The one Rembrandt posted looks pretty good, but didn't make the top 40. And we don't even get to vote on the top 40, it will be reduced to the top 4.</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm probably leaning towards changing the flag but I doubt I would ever vote for us to become a Republic. It is actually a bit strange. Probably up unto a few days ago I was unlikely to vote to change the flag. However, now that I have seen some of the designs I feel like they could really represent us as a country. Personally, I think we should keep the Southern Cross on the flag. I think it represents the migration of people to our nation and in that way represents all cultures. From the list booboo posted I like flags 1, 5, 6, 7, 14, 17, 22, 24, 26, 27, 32, 33, 37 and 39. So fair to say I'm happy with the choice. I would like to see the flags actually flying first before I make my decision.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I feel that as the debate rages people will forget about the cost and about John Key and actually put the country first. I get that some people don't like John Key. However, we have been talking about changing the flag for years. I think it is good that we are finally having the debate rather than just talking about it for another 50 years.</p> -
Add me to the 'no republic' list as well. Simply, the cost outweighs any benefit. We can legislate away any old rights like the privy council.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="507792" data-time="1439366468">
<div>
<p>Add me to the 'no republic' list as well. Simply, the cost outweighs any benefit. We can legislate away any old rights like the privy council.</p>
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<p>It also raises questions about how we select a Head of State etc. An elected figure head? A complete change to a Presidential system?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The current system isn't perfect but I'm concerned we would choose something worse with all sorts of unintended consequences</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the flag - I dislike the current one but I don't like any of the options. So I'll just sit back and complain about everything</p> -
Don't see the point in going to the expense and hassle of being a republic when we are effectively one apart from our womenfolks bizarre interest in the royal family and their weddings and kids . <br><br>
I'd be interested in Red Terror adding to this thread about what happened in Canada when they changed their flag which from memory was after ww2. -
<p>One potential compromise with the flag could be that if we vote for a change, the current flag could still be flown on some occasions such as ANZAC Day. That way the flag could take on new meaning. As it is, the official flag of New Zealand is also the official flag of the NZ Army. Theoretically, the Army could continue to use the current flag if it is important enough for them. The Navy and Air Force already use seperate flags.</p>
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Many armed forces are buried under the fern, as below:<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://thebignote.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NZ2.jpg">http://thebignote.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NZ2.jpg</a><br><br>
I also think of it as the symbol of our country - not just sports. It's also iconic. <br><br>
I'm not sure why, but everyone seems to think the 'fern' flag pushers are only about sports. It's not like that to me at all - I just identify with the black flag. I guess it won't matter, but all I do know is that if I was getting an Olympic medal, I'd want the black one going up and the Maori anthem playing. <br><br>
But, while I'm dreaming... -
And the irony of me using the Olympics to show my point isn't lost on me
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<p>Hard to form a concrete opinion of any of those until they're run up a flagpole on a windy day. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Quite like the red-blue fern though. </p> -
<p>At this stage I think I would vote to change, as long as a design I like is proposed. Down to a few factors.</p>
<p>1/ Dont like having someone elses flag on our flag</p>
<p>2/ NZ soldiers can have a fern on the grave, but not on the flag? Nonsensical.</p>
<p>3/ DOnt buy the line that soldiers have died for or under a flag. They fought for a myriad of reasons, country (more than a flag), mates, family, fear etc. </p>
<p>4/ The current flag is out 3rd flag anyway.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Having said that.. I am not totally decided.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="507797" data-time="1439367636"><p>
Don't see the point in going to the expense and hassle of being a republic when we are effectively one apart from our womenfolks bizarre interest in the royal family and their weddings and kids . <br><br>
I'd be interested in Red Terror adding to this thread about what happened in Canada when they changed their flag which from memory was after ww2.</p></blockquote>
I believe the old flag is still frequently used by veterans and flies together with the current one at Canadian War Memorial.<br><br>
Ultimately, this is all about people having issues with the Union Jack. I'm no fan of Poms but have no problem with it. Reminds us how lucky we are that it wasn't the French, Spanish or Portuguese who colonised the place.<br><br>
If the flag is outdated and the country apparently needs to evolve, then what about the name of the country? It's named after a part of Holland ffs. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="507769" data-time="1439353165"><p>
I agree. However I'm not sure that the Southern Cross is what is representative of NZ either. <br><br>
are there Kiwis looking up into the night sky seeing the stars and getting this overwhelming feeling of patriotism :)</p></blockquote>Actually looking up at the night sky gives me a feeling of "home".<br><br>
Admittedly I do more of it here in Qld than I did in NZ... -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="507778" data-time="1439357971"><p>
I agree with this. But I agree with the need to differentiate our flag from Australia's (union jack + southern cross). Our identify NZ as being like Australia, but a bit a different.</p></blockquote>
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We had our flag first. They copied us -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="507785" data-time="1439362481"><p>
I actually don't get why people don't want to take the opportunity to change or dated and meaningless flag. It isn't like this chance is going to come up whenever we want it. I'm supporting change despite it being a Johnkey vanity project because if we don't we'll continue to be stuck with the flag of another country stuck in the corner of our flag.<br>
This is a chance to show an identity of our own.<br>
Thinking about the options, the one with the black in the corner is looking better and better. It is actually quite striking and in a way is very relevant, showing a new country emerging from its colonial past.<br>
My approach to this has always been that if a good option comes up then I'll vote for it.</p></blockquote>
I don't accept that our current flag is meaningless. It has a meaning. It's part of our heritage and I for one am proud of it. I do however lean towards updating it. I like the fernn and southern cross motif. Just the colors are the issue IMO. BUT we'll rip ourselves to shreds in the interim ...
