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Looks like the Mosque attacked has previous links to terrorism, and was shut down in 2003 with the then Imam Abu Hamza al-Masri arrested and charged with offences for inciting violence and racial hatred, currently serving a life sentence after being extradited to the States. It was reopened in 2005 with the help of the Muslim Association of Britain and a new board of trustees appointed.
So the Mosque probably wasn't chosen at random. As you say @Rembrandt pretty hard to see how things are going to improve from here.
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Terrorist fucks.
Here's a quote about some branches of Islam from another games board I frequent (mostly atheists, amusingly, but someone asked about Islam, so a Muslim replied):
The basic difference between sunni and shia is over a succession dispute (though it had some theological issues that in part informed and in part were informed by that succession dispute) after Muhammed's death leadership of the muslim community passed to his father-in-law Abu Bakr, Ali, Muhammed's son-in-law (married to his Daughter Fatima) had some problems with that (claiming he had been promised the leadership) this got worse in the following elections (one of the big issues was whether or not the caliphate should be heridatery (Ali's position) or elective). this lead to a civil war, Ali (who had eventually become Caliph) was assassinated, his sons killed in battle.
This succession might seem a fairly minor personal issue, but it also has some theological ones, namely in how exactly to derive and interpret islamic law. All muslims accept the Qu'ran (the revealed word of God) and the sunnah (the life of the Prophet as an example, that's where "sunni" comes from, but to confuse matters shi'ites (which comes from a word meaning "party", as in "Ali's party") have their own sunnah. Both Shi'ites and sunnis collect the sunnah in hadiths (which are basically written down stories about the prophet with a kind of genealogy "X told Y who told Z who heard it from the Prophet himself") as well as interpretation and analogy. (eg. the qu'ran forbids wine, does that also apply to other alcoholic beverages? To other drugs? To some but not to others? Depending on the particular school of law that might be interpreted differently)
Now, shi'ites see the bloodline of the Prophet as itself having a kind of spiritual power, passed down through the descendants of Ali. (who are as mentioned, also descendants of the prophet, through his daughter) this in some ways means that theologically shi'ites are closer to catholics (with a living spiritual tradition) and the sunnis closer to protestants (with a more scripture-centered worldview) so in addition to the stuff attributed to Muhammed the shi'ites also take into account stuff said and done by Ali and his descendants (though not to the same extent ofc.) this is one of the reason sunnis often claim shi'ites are idolatrous.
Thing is though, Ali's descendants themselves are a part of history, depending on which shi'ite group you belong to, they count a different number of imams (imam means basically "prayer leader" and is confusing because depending on context it can either mean just the guy leading the prayer at your mosque or the supreme prayer leader for all muslims... Kind of like referring both to the Pope and your local priest as "Father") the biggest group are the twelvers (the official sect in Iran) which count down to twelve imams before the final one, Al-Mahdi, dissapears. (Twelvers clame that he merely went into hiding, "occultation" and is still guiding the priesthood (and can thus provide "new" information to make legal decisions on) and is expected to return at the end of days) the second largest (but much smaller) group is the Ismailis, (the split can be traced back to a pair of brothers) their main political effect in history is forming the nominal basis of the Fatimid Caliphate of Egypt, they have a bunch of smaller splinter-groups, some who still claim to have a living imam hanging around, this is one of them.
Both sunnis and shi'ites split further in confusing ways. As a generalization shi'ites has the framework for a personal charismatic "divine leader" style more than the sunnis do (though both crop up, and there's a lot of cross-pollination on the fringes) and sometimes it goes off into points where it's arguably if they're considered muslims any more (like the Druze or Ahmadi, both splinter-groups claiming to follow a figure or another)
"Sufism" is a term that you'll often find, but it's hard to define, it's not really a denomination per se (although there are distinctly sufi denominations) but a way of practicing islam, it crosses over with both sunni, shi'ite and sometimes becomes it's own thing entirely, basically the idea is to focus on mysticism and union with God rather than dry legal reasoning (though they do that too) Sufism has historically been popular especially in border regions with many adherents of other religions (like Anatolia, West Africa, or India) and as such there's a great deal of syncretism (which more orthodox muslims often frown on)
There's also a third group, the Ibadis that also spawned out early, but they're fairly mariginal outside of Oman.
Shia islam has a lot of small splinter sects often centered on a religious leader (often now dead) the big exception to this is Iran (though that too was caused by a charismatic religious and military leader) where a pretty (for islam) structured hierarchy of clergy has developed over the last 500 years or so. Twelver islam is often tied up with (from all sides) iranian/persian nationalism.
In the sunni world there evolved several different schools of law (in the traditional islamic world, jurisprudence and theology are highly onnected) that often got fairly elaborate and complicated as they had to deal with new situations and such. This also predictably spawned "reform" movements, either to further adapt the legal code or to return to the "original, pure" version of islam, the most famous of the latter are the salafis: dominant (but not the majority) in Saudi Arabia and a very strict sect, they mostly reject the jurisprudence of the traditional sunni schools (and are therefore sometimes seen as heretical by mainline sunnis) it's sometimes called "Wahhabism" after it's founder, but the members themselves consider this derogatory. A lot of focus in salafism is purging the community of "unislamic" institutions (veneration of saints, festivals, insufficiently fundamentalist legal judgements, etc.) in this they're very similar to the reformation-era puritans. Some (but not all) salafis encourage armed violence in order to reach their goals, and groups like Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc. are theoretically at least salafi organizations. In addition to terrorism they also tends to have an outsized influence because the Saudis sponsor them (building mosques, providing salafi-trained legal scholars, etc.) even outside Saudi Arabia.
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I miss childhood when it was all just baddies vs goodies.
This guy did some interviews during the UK against hate march in Manchester a week back. Fascinating how the pro-antifa protestors really have more in common with those they are protesting against but are just so indoctrinated they can't see the woods from the trees. -
@Rembrandt most of those people are just mouthpieces for an ideology they don't understand. They genuinely believe finding people they disagree with and waving signs at them is the way to change society - despite the fact they have absolutely no understanding of the processes at play which have created the society they all benefit from living in.
Want to make society and the world better? Fucking educate yourself and make yourself a better person. Stop trying to tell other people how morally superior you are when you haven't done shit to improve anything.
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@Donsteppa said in Another attack in London:
That approach would be savaged by the left.
Targeting people based on a risk profile??? Racist Islamophobes!!!!! -
Doesn't seem to be much more than simple arithmetic
“The main difference is Italy doesn’t have a big population of second-generation immigrants that have been radicalised or could potentially be radicalised,” said Francesca Galli, an assistant professor at Maastricht University and an expert in counter-terrorism policies.
AdvertisementIt took about 20 people to watch a terror suspect full-time, Galli said. Naturally, the abundance of resources required to closely monitor anyone becomes more challenging if there are more suspects to watch".
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Donsteppa said in Another attack in London:
That approach would be savaged by the left.
Targeting people based on a risk profile??? Racist Islamophobes!!!!!It's the very reason El Al hasn't had another highjacking in almost 50 years.
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@dogmeat said in Another attack in London:
Doesn't seem to be much more than simple arithmetic
“The main difference is Italy doesn’t have a big population of second-generation immigrants that have been radicalised or could potentially be radicalised,” said Francesca Galli, an assistant professor at Maastricht University and an expert in counter-terrorism policies.
AdvertisementIt took about 20 people to watch a terror suspect full-time, Galli said. Naturally, the abundance of resources required to closely monitor anyone becomes more challenging if there are more suspects to watch".
Sooo you could say the problem is too much immigration from the Middle East?
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@No-Quarter yet they're not discussing 1st gen immigrants i.e. actual migrants.
I know what you mean, but the dickhead factor seems to come back to second gen a lot of the time. What up their collective arses?
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@NTA said in Another attack in London:
@No-Quarter yet they're not discussing 1st gen immigrants i.e. actual migrants.
I know what you mean, but the dickhead factor seems to come back to second gen a lot of the time. What up their collective arses?
Whilst you're correct and it is the radicalisation of many 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, there is an argument that the more recent influx has increased the likelihood of the existing guys getting rabid.
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@NTA said in Another attack in London:
@No-Quarter yet they're not discussing 1st gen immigrants i.e. actual migrants.
I know what you mean, but the dickhead factor seems to come back to second gen a lot of the time. What up their collective arses?
At least in some cases the first gen can be blamed for ruining the 2nd gen. Imagine being born and raised in a country yet told not to associate with the locals and being taught they're fundamentally evil. No wonder they're fucked up.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Another attack in London:
@NTA said in Another attack in London:
@No-Quarter yet they're not discussing 1st gen immigrants i.e. actual migrants.
I know what you mean, but the dickhead factor seems to come back to second gen a lot of the time. What up their collective arses?
At least in some cases the first gen can be blamed for ruining the 2nd gen. Imagine being born and raised in a country yet told not to associate with the locals and being taught they're fundamentally evil. No wonder they're fucked up.
I am not sure that happens alot. I think that older generation of refugees were and are genuinly pleased to be in the West.
The kids are like the Muslim version of the ignirant shites in the far left movement. One has never lived under Islamic law, the other has never lived under communism. Both are groups of deluded fuckwits. Both wishing to be controlled by a system they don't understand the evil of. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback I would like that twice if I could. 100% on the money. Amazing that the two most murderous ideologies in human history (fundamental Islam and Communism) are making a comeback - I'm starting to think human history is one of the most important things we can teach our youth today!
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It's a pattern we have seen here in Australia before the Islam thing too: Lebanese and then Croat/Serb. Kids wanting to go back and fight for their heritage (or some shit) and the parents are all "You fucking what?"
Don't see the Vietnamese here railing to defend some shit back "home".
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2nd generation immigrants wanting to get in touch with their native/original culture is nothing new. It has been documented for at least 100 years and can easily be observed in NZ amongst Croats/Dutch etc
The difference with these fucktards is the aspect of their "culture" they decide to appropriate.
they need to understand their (sometimes) shitty lives in the west would be a helluva lot shittier back in sandtopia. Which is why their parents left in the first fucking place....
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Oh good this thread is still handy, won't have to start another.
Looks like it could have been a whole lot worse as indications suggest it only partially exploded. On a timer though so suspects at large and who knows if this will be the only one we see.
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This tweet from Trump is interesting
"Another attack in London by a loser terrorist.These are sick and demented people who were in the sights of Scotland Yard. Must be proactive!"
He is either making something up or letting slip something he has been told in a briefing. After distributing pics from the Manchester bombing given to them in confidence I thought they would be being a bit more careful.
Another attack in London