Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks
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Interesting topic, with no right or wrong answer.
Are we just guilty of imposing our values as amateur footballers who wanted to be ABs, but were never going to be, and therefore value it above everything else, on guys who actually have an option?
Or is it, as MR and Chris have said, that the ABs are more than a sports team to NZers, they are a culturally significant group, and therefore deserving of being above economic realities?
Or is it that we have finally reached full professionalism, where it really is only a job, and one that gives you a decade or so to set yourself up for the rest of your life? Sure, you can be Richie, Read, Dan, Nonu, play 80-120 tests, get a top level NZR salary for 8-10 years, setting yourself up for a comfy life in NZ, with the added bonus of being a big enough star to jag a massive 2-year Europe deal in your 30s because you're a legend.
But there are many more Steven Luatua's and Lima Sopoaga's, who sit on the fringe, miss squads (and thus miss money) and run the very real risk of being overtaken before they can ever get "their turn". It's very hard to look at that and think "nah, that 600 euro a season isn't THAT much compared to my current lot". Add in it could all go away with one bad tackle, and the risk/reward matrix moves a bit.
How much of a factor is our passion and culture on these guys as well? You're a week to week proposition with NZ rugby fans, where a couple of bad games and you're copping it everywhere, especially if there is a bright new thing to fawn over. Jesus, even Richie wasn't immune to our particular disease. 600 euro and a much dimmer spotlight probably starts to look pretty good after a poor year.
It's clear the AB jersey, the history, the legacy, and the chance to write yourself in to that is still absolutely a big pull, or we would lose a lot more guys than we do. But we really have to accept that for some, the reality probably dawns that the risk of being nothing more than a footnote is too big to ignore.
Still doesn't mean we can't write these traitors the fuck off though. You made your bed you ungrateful fuckers, lay in it.
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@mariner4life said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Still doesn't mean we can't write these traitors the fuck off though. You made your bed you ungrateful fuckers, lay in it.
Yeah, right on! They're all dead to me!!!
What we need is to develop an NZ equivalent to "un-Australian", so that we can use it.
Otherwise, a good summary.
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@bones said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
So why does Cruden, TKB get a free pass and Sopoaga gets rounded on? Luatua is hard done by, Lima is a prick? It's all a bit odd.
I'll answer this one, as I'm holding Sops to a level of ire that I don't hold to any others.
Hayman and Evans: Left at end of world cup cycle, leaving the coaches 4 years to finalise their replacements. I was very disappointed to see them go as they were in their prime, but didn't feel stuffed around by them
Evans and McAllister going, and NZ playing the 2011 RWC final with our 6th choice 10 and a makeshift starting goalkicker makes me that much more sensitive to movements of a first-five. As I said in an earlier post a first-five isn't like some of the other 'dual positions' where you can get game time into 2 guys at once such as midfield, tight-loosies, lock, wing.
I'd think Nick Evans is the poster child for 'don't give up just because you have a legend encumbent in your position'. What a career he could have had.
Piutau I was very disappointed he went, i rated him very very highly. But he timed his move properly with the RWC cycle, then released early.
Faumuina, Cruden, TKB. Timed their departures 2 and a bit years out from RWC. Coaches and selectors had their eyes wide open when selecting them this year.
Luatua is the same, although he was not in current squads. I think he's Nick Evans level of crazy, there a parting of the Red Sea like gap opening up in the ABs in his position and I think he's mad, but he's given everyone plenty of time to adjust.I only have an issue wth Sops, and it is to do with timing. Once he committed to touring EOYT post-Cruden leaving .... in my opinion he should be committing for the rest of the cycle. However, there is obviously fault here on the contracting side by the NZRU as well. Sops can leave with my blessing after 2019. But I'm angry that minutes put into Sops should have now gone into Mo'ounga. I'm concerned that we only have 2 10s currently with test experience and the second of them has just jumped ship, regardless of how the next 2 years may have played out for him he is currently number 2 in a threadbare spot and he has just piked on us.
I don't have a philosophical oppistion to players moving like ChrisB. I think the churn and constant refreshing keeps us strong as long as the core remains stable. I agree with ChrisB that the current stable core of coaching, admin and senior leadership players can unravel surprisingly quickly if incompetents slip into the chain somewhere.
I've said Sops crossed a line for me, the line is fine. If he did this just months earlier before the EOYT - I'd just rank him in the disappointing unfulfilled group. Not in the damaging to our own cause group.
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@mariner4life said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Interesting topic, with no right or wrong answer.
Are we just guilty of imposing our values as amateur footballers who wanted to be ABs, but were never going to be, and therefore value it above everything else, on guys who actually have an option?
Or is it, as MR and Chris have said, that the ABs are more than a sports team to NZers, they are a culturally significant group, and therefore deserving of being above economic realities?
Or is it that we have finally reached full professionalism, where it really is only a job, and one that gives you a decade or so to set yourself up for the rest of your life? Sure, you can be Richie, Read, Dan, Nonu, play 80-120 tests, get a top level NZR salary for 8-10 years, setting yourself up for a comfy life in NZ, with the added bonus of being a big enough star to jag a massive 2-year Europe deal in your 30s because you're a legend.
But there are many more Steven Luatua's and Lima Sopoaga's, who sit on the fringe, miss squads (and thus miss money) and run the very real risk of being overtaken before they can ever get "their turn". It's very hard to look at that and think "nah, that 600 euro a season isn't THAT much compared to my current lot". Add in it could all go away with one bad tackle, and the risk/reward matrix moves a bit.
How much of a factor is our passion and culture on these guys as well? You're a week to week proposition with NZ rugby fans, where a couple of bad games and you're copping it everywhere, especially if there is a bright new thing to fawn over. Jesus, even Richie wasn't immune to our particular disease. 600 euro and a much dimmer spotlight probably starts to look pretty good after a poor year.
It's clear the AB jersey, the history, the legacy, and the chance to write yourself in to that is still absolutely a big pull, or we would lose a lot more guys than we do. But we really have to accept that for some, the reality probably dawns that the risk of being nothing more than a footnote is too big to ignore.
Still doesn't mean we can't write these traitors the fuck off though. You made your bed you ungrateful fuckers, lay in it.
I think the apples and oranges ( Read, Richie, Nonu etc vs Sopoaga, Luatua etc ) rings true here. There's a massive hierarchy in the ABs and like it or not Sopoaga is firmly in the 'have not' category with absolutely no guarantee he'll sneak into the 'haves'. The tone I get from here is 'they got five minutes off the bench vs Tonga, they're ABs just the same as a 100 test veteran' which is bullshit.
Make hay for yourself while the sun shines and take up any opportunity that comes your way which a bunch of sad fluffybunnies writing on an internet forum can only dream about.
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@donsteppa yep, plenty of people like using the simple business and career analogy for rugby as a business and players careers, but in reality there is still significant differences.
Can I have your autograph though, you might be famous in RL
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@donsteppa said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
I'd buy analogies like "I'd imagine most on here would happily uproot to another job if offered more cash, better location etc" if I thought any of you had also asked your nearest IT support worker for an autograph.
That's just fucken stupid.
I don't work in IT.
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The worst thing about these guys leaving is the late-developers never develop fully. Nonu I rate as in the top 3-4 All Blacks ever, but he debuted in 2003 and only really came good post 2007. So many of these guys who are fringe ABs after 1-2 years and then leave, you never know could've turned out to be 100+ test superstars who redefine their position for a generation.
The other variable we don't really know (unless you know the guys personally) is how they react to fame. Some, I imagine, thrive in the NZ fishbowl/spotlight, are all over instagram, have extra sponsorship deals, wives/gfs in the public eye etc. And then at the other end of the spectrum there are Carl Hayman types who leave to get away from all that, and even Jesse Ryder-types who seem to perform much better when the spotlight is less. So that's a very personality-dependent trait (that we as fans may have zero insight into) that might be a big determinant in staying vs. going to Europe.
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One aspect that is not being considered is that these younger guys leaving don't just weaken us. It also weakens the country where they choose to play.
Look at France there are loads of already capped players playing here now that are taking up spots of French players. How can the national team be any good if there is no where for the youth to play and if even the already capped players can't get starts.
This will happen in the UK as well, and its bad all round for rugby as a product at the international level.
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@snowy said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Yeah, I thought he would have a career like Mils and probably could have.
The back end of Mils career actually highlights where Europe helps us more often than it hurts - it gives us an avenue to let players go with dignity. Without Europe as an option coming out of 2011 RWC Mils could have gone to the NZRU and said "I've been a loyal player, I've played 100 tests and captained the side, I went into this RWC as the starting fullback and I want to re-sign for 4 more years on AB money - thanks".
It was obvious to all (injury not withstanding) that his days were done as a difference maker at test level. Dagg was now the incumbent and Smith was already overcooked. We had no need for him - but without Europe giving Mils a dignified exit we would be left with being very callous to some legends or wasting some very precious NZRU coin.
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@tewaio said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
The worst thing about these guys leaving is the late-developers never develop fully. Nonu I rate as in the top 3-4 All Blacks ever, but he debuted in 2003 and only really came good post 2007. So many of these guys who are fringe ABs after 1-2 years and then leave, you never know could've turned out to be 100+ test superstars who redefine their position for a generation.
The other end of this is a guy like Kahn Fotuali'i who developed relatively late and was at times the best halfback in the country when Weepu's head wasn't on straight and can't get a cap. If he had not left he would still be waiting for a test cap.
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@rotated I've got no issue with people going at the end of their career to top up their earnings - people like Mils and more recently Carter, Nonu and Conrad - might have had one, maybe two more AB seasons in them, but we were better off without them pacing themselves through the year to put in a couple of big performances.
I've also got no issue with people like Brad Shields (or Kahn Fotuali'i) going. He's given it a good crack, the ABs have shown little interest, and it opens up a space for the next bright young thing.
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@mooshld said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
One aspect that is not being considered is that these younger guys leaving don't just weaken us. It also weakens the country where they choose to play.
Look at France there are loads of already capped players playing here now that are taking up spots of French players. How can the national team be any good if there is no where for the youth to play and if even the already capped players can't get starts.
This will happen in the UK as well, and its bad all round for rugby as a product at the international level.
It's already happening in the UK right? Journeymen like Jimmy Gopperth are blocking the way for up and coming locals
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@tim said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
My favourite thing is when people post on here that players like Gopperth or Brock James are actually really good, and NZ'ers just don't understand. Even better when it's a New Zealander making the post.
Both of those two were actually very good for the way their clubs wanted to play. Neither of them were too flash but both did the basics well and did what their coaches asked of them. World beaters no but good solid club players, yes... But I take your point. Another anomaly is Carl Hayman, a legend in black but really only above average up here - maybe he wasn't trying.
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@canefan said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mooshld said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
One aspect that is not being considered is that these younger guys leaving don't just weaken us. It also weakens the country where they choose to play.
Look at France there are loads of already capped players playing here now that are taking up spots of French players. How can the national team be any good if there is no where for the youth to play and if even the already capped players can't get starts.
This will happen in the UK as well, and its bad all round for rugby as a product at the international level.
It's already happening in the UK right? Journeymen like Jimmy Gopperth are blocking the way for up and coming locals
My local club Racing are horrendous for this. I can't think of the last guy they developed into a test match player. If my boys show any talent there is no way in hell I would let them play there. You are blocked at every level and even if you do break through you are only one signing away from being back on the bench.
You can't expect up and coming players to out perform experienced test match players with out giving them any game time and the French national team is paying the price.
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@mooshld said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@canefan said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mooshld said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
One aspect that is not being considered is that these younger guys leaving don't just weaken us. It also weakens the country where they choose to play.
Look at France there are loads of already capped players playing here now that are taking up spots of French players. How can the national team be any good if there is no where for the youth to play and if even the already capped players can't get starts.
This will happen in the UK as well, and its bad all round for rugby as a product at the international level.
It's already happening in the UK right? Journeymen like Jimmy Gopperth are blocking the way for up and coming locals
My local club Racing are horrendous for this. I can't think of the last guy they developed into a test match player. If my boys show any talent there is no way in hell I would let them play there. You are blocked at every level and even if you do break through you are only one signing away from being back on the bench.
You can't expect up and coming players to out perform experienced test match players with out giving them any game time and the French national team is paying the price.
Racing as in DCs club? As long as clubs are owned and run by people who have no interest in building the national team test rugby will suffer
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@mooshld said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Thats the one.
I was in Paris last year, the RM billboard had DC, a long haired Jaap whose name escapes me, and one token frog? NH rugby is just like EPL club football, loaded with stars (many old) but light on local talent.
Edit shows how much I know, the long haired one is a froggie! The team still plays Joe Rok!
