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@nzzp said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Virgil said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
What a crock of shit.
Someone should remind her this atrocity was carried out by an AUSTRALIAN who took advantage of our lax gun laws and the open borders policy NZ and Oz have
Pretty sure the response shown since Friday has been the opposite to everything she spouted in that tripe.
Maybe just me, but I take no comfort and don’t see the point of the argument that he is Australian.
I do think it matters that he's not from here. It means that we're not routinely radicalising people inside our country. Yes, we still have plenty of issues to deal with - but we have to be aware that this was a single person who appears to have operated alone, who came from outside our community, and then targetted us deliberately.
So, for me, it does make a big difference. If we had radicalised him through our internal white supremacist groups, then we have a much, much bigger issue to deal with. We still have issues to confront as a society, but they could be a lot worse.
That reads a bit like Australia is routinely radicalising people, though I’m fairly sure that wasn’t what you meant to convey.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
Agree with both of you. It kindsa matters, and it kinda does not.
It matters because attacking our culture and society makes no sense when it was done by someone from our culture.
It doesnt matter because lone wolf evil nut cases can come form any country. He could easily ahve come form NZ, still wouldnt make him reflective of NZ in any way.I think this gets at the heart of why identity politics is so pointless. You can be endlessly granular about what identity someone is or isn't (except for white males seemingly). Whether the person is NZer or Australian is rightfully seen as irrelevant.
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@nzzp well it looks like Eastern Europe was where he was radicalized, whatever that means.
Ultimately he was a NZ resident, acquired his weapons in NZ (legally) and carried it out in NZ. If that sweary bloke above is right, then it seems plenty of other NZers may have suspected, and elected not to report.
If s NZ born fella followed the same path, I’d feel exactly the same.
Now the question for myself is, would I feel the same if they were from a refugee country?
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@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@nzzp well it looks like Eastern Europe was where he was radicalized, whatever that means.
Ultimately he was a NZ resident, acquired his weapons in NZ (legally) and carried it out in NZ. If that sweary bloke above is right, then it seems plenty of other NZers may have suspected, and elected not to report.
If s NZ born fella followed the same path, I’d feel exactly the same.
Now the question for myself is, would I feel the same if they were from a refugee country?
Hmmm.
I'll have to think further on this. I guess I'm struggling with the link between a generally moderate country (NZ), and the utterly insane actions.
Maybe we're just trying to post-hoc rationalise something that can't be rationalised?
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@Virgil said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
What a crock of shit.
Someone should remind her this atrocity was carried out by an AUSTRALIAN who took advantage of our lax gun laws and the open borders policy NZ and Oz have
Pretty sure the response shown since Friday has been the opposite to everything she spouted in that tripe.
Perhaps her article is accurate in its representation of the company she keeps.
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Think if you wanted to be pedantic and assign blame it can be shared between us and Australia.
We allowed him to fulfill his hate filled quest through lax gun laws and no agencies picking up on his actions.
But I still feel this has more to do with his home country Australia then it does with us. Whatever drove him to act out and harbour the hate he has came about from his real home. He simply saw us as an easier place to unleash and strike.
He even said himself he choose Christchurch because it was the one City no one would think this would ever happen.
Where as tbh if this happened in Sydney or Melbourne it would have been less of a surprise. Still a huge shock and horrific crime, but given other incidence and reports of foiled plans no one would have been totally surprised. -
@Virgil said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
But I still feel this has more to do with his home country Australia then it does with us. Whatever drove him to act out and harbour the hate he has came about from his real home.
He was a fat kid who was shit at sports. Unsurprisingly he didn't have any friends.
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@antipodean said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Virgil said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
But I still feel this has more to do with his home country Australia then it does with us. Whatever drove him to act out and harbour the hate he has came about from his real home.
He was a fat kid who was shit at sports. Unsurprisingly he didn't have any friends.
This is the critical point. In almost all cases these lone wolves, muslim white or otherwise, are farking losers. They latch onto some cause out on the fringes to make themselves feel important for once and this is their chance for 10 minutes of 'fame'.
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@antipodean said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
He was a fat kid who was shit at sports. Unsurprisingly he didn't have any friends.
I could almost hear the aussie twang when I read that! Great description!
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@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
The virtue signalling is getting on my tits.
Hit a new low this morning from somebody who, frankly speaking, I expected much better of. Based in Melbourne, went to some Mosque over the weekend to "support the community" and has taken a photo with her partner, both of them cuddling up pulling one of their "funny selfie" pictures.
Basically tourism.
I agree with you about the signalling, but one fact that might be relevant - in Melbourne on the weekend it was some sort of Mosque 'open day', where non-Islamic people were encouraged to visit, take photos etc.
So it might not have been as insensitive as it seemed.
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@canefan said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@antipodean said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Virgil said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
But I still feel this has more to do with his home country Australia then it does with us. Whatever drove him to act out and harbour the hate he has came about from his real home.
He was a fat kid who was shit at sports. Unsurprisingly he didn't have any friends.
This is the critical point. In almost all cases these lone wolves, muslim white or otherwise, are farking losers. They latch onto some cause out on the fringes to make themselves feel important for once and this is their chance for 10 minutes of 'fame'.
That's exactly right. These are folk on the fringes without sustainable meaning in their lives.
Think of the kids in your class growing up, the ones on the bottom rung, socially weird and constantly bullied. I understand his father had cancer and committed suicide, it doesn't excuse anything but it can create a fertile ground for this to grow.
It's so infuriating that Jordan Peterson is often so slandered by mainstream outlets as its his message which has been having success in de-radicalising people like this terrorist. His 12 rules book is the exact antidote to this guys manifesto.
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@barbarian said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
The virtue signalling is getting on my tits.
Hit a new low this morning from somebody who, frankly speaking, I expected much better of. Based in Melbourne, went to some Mosque over the weekend to "support the community" and has taken a photo with her partner, both of them cuddling up pulling one of their "funny selfie" pictures.
Basically tourism.
I agree with you about the signalling, but one fact that might be relevant - in Melbourne on the weekend it was some sort of Mosque 'open day', where non-Islamic people were encouraged to visit, take photos etc.
So it might not have been as insensitive as it seemed.
@barbarian said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
The virtue signalling is getting on my tits.
Hit a new low this morning from somebody who, frankly speaking, I expected much better of. Based in Melbourne, went to some Mosque over the weekend to "support the community" and has taken a photo with her partner, both of them cuddling up pulling one of their "funny selfie" pictures.
Basically tourism.
I agree with you about the signalling, but one fact that might be relevant - in Melbourne on the weekend it was some sort of Mosque 'open day', where non-Islamic people were encouraged to visit, take photos etc.
So it might not have been as insensitive as it seemed.
Yes it was. An event organised by the Islamic Council of Victoria and planned well in advance of the Christchurch shootings.
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This is a good point, as many of this guys actions look like attempts to assimilate, which clearly didn’t work.
He was once a fat useless sportsperson who apparently fully committed to personal training. When that didn’t work, he no doubt tried other things, trying to find a place to fit in.
I won’t be surprised if he endured significant bullying (the father’s suicide and associated trauma doesn’t surprise me) and I’d wager he had some event where he was passed over or in some other perceived a slight against his person that he could point towards brown, specially Muslim, people.
I think that Baron is right; I don’t think he’s representative of any significant sub-population in NZ or Oz. Nevertheless, it’s very useful to find out how and where he got these ideas. For all I know, there is a dangerous group of people radicalizing people. If so, I want them identified in the same way that I’d want people identified who were trying to radicalize muslims.
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@gt12 said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
I won’t be surprised if he endured significant bullying (the father’s suicide and associated trauma doesn’t surprise me) and I’d wager he had some event where he was passed over or in some other perceived a slight against his person that he could point towards brown, specially Muslim, people.
I guess spending considerable time in Turkey would assist there. London to a brick you won't find many crusading against bullying with this as their poster child.
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Just another asshole using the 50 dead for personal/political gain
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214162
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Erdogan is the antithesis of Ataturk.
Major ISP in Australia has now also jumped on the same censorship bandwagon.
...nothing like giant corporations being the arbiters of societal morality. Independent news site and what appears to be some sort of farming blog (joke) as being the two I'm aware of.
At least in Australia there are some media who might actually make a stand against giving away freedoms so willingly.
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Well Abbott wants to make it so that you can't use the Internet anonymously. Bit of an overreaction and a considerable leap down the path of 1984. Once they know who you are, they can visit and advise your opinions aren't correct.
Particularly if you're scathing of elected officials or imbecilic public servants.
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..also some sites named after what I can only assume was their Chinese founder.
At some point you have to decide do you want to live in a free society with all the uncertainty that can bring or would you rather we live in a world where governments and corporations determine what thoughts are permissible?
These experiments have already been done last century and the results are crystal clear as to what will happen.
I can't help but feel the exact worst people are calling the shots right now.
Christchurch Gunman in Mosque