P and all that jazz

gollum

The best thing about that video is when he says "people choose reddit, video games, porn or drugs to fill the void". So now I feel smug about having not chosen drugs.
 
As the other 3 are awesome.
 
Also, thats a great video.

Rembrandt

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="559320" data-time="1455773993">
Some interesting points in this, if you've got a free 5 mins, it's probably worth a look <a class="bbc_url" href="

">

</a> 
Some of the points the collective wisdom of the fern has also identified</blockquote>
 
Great video. It just doesn't seem to quite marry up with smack addicts accounts of going clean or even folk trying to give up smoking, maybe early-on a socialisation intervention might be the key but regular users must also address a physical dependency.

Catogrande

Agree Rembrandt. Also the examples given of heroin addiction or the lack of, being the US grunts in the Vietnam War and hospital patients are very particular examples and not "everyday life" examples. The first lot are likely to be, in the main, normal people in an abnormal situation with peripatetic access to the stuff. The latter are not making a choice to have the "super heroin" and are again in an abnormal situation of requiring extreme pain control AND have the usage and dosage of the drug controlled. So whilst interesting, not in itself a complete argument. I actually found the rat story more compelling.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="559361" data-time="1455795995">
<div>
Great video. It just doesn't seem to quite marry up with smack addicts accounts of going clean or even folk trying to give up smoking, maybe early-on a socialisation intervention might be the key but regular users must also address a physical dependency.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Perhaps it is more psychological than we give it credit.
 
Alkies and ex junkies go their whole lives knowing they can't touch another hit, when surely all traces of the drug are gone. Agree there is an initial purging that movies and folklore portray as heinous in the case of opiate withdrawl, not saying it isn't but 40 years on they can't regress which must be mental rather than physical. Smoking withdrawls are over dramatised and apparently nicotine is gone in 3 days (easily measurable). The urge to smoke lasts long after
 
Then again pain killers don't work on heroin addicts which must be physiological.
 
Thought the rats endorsed the notion that if you've nothing really to do or live for then addiction is more of a probability, as evidenced by the socio-economic status of humans and life ruining addictions. Poor people hooked on Myanmars methamphetamine here, places like Baltimore and the Favellas of Rio etc
 
The rat study and the video produced a "yeah that makes sense" notion for me. Ergo, give people a purpose and a fair go and the drug problem could well expire.
 
Ok world leaders, time for some equality....yeah right

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="559365" data-time="1455804194">
<div>
Perhaps it is more psychological than we give it credit.
 
Alkies and ex junkies go their whole lives knowing they can't touch another hit, when surely all traces of the drug are gone. Agree there is an initial purging that movies and folklore portray as heinous in the case of opiate withdrawl, not saying it isn't but 40 years on they can't regress which must be mental rather than physical. Smoking withdrawls are over dramatised and apparently nicotine is gone in 3 days (easily measurable). The urge to smoke lasts long after
 
Then again pain killers don't work on heroin addicts which must be physiological.
 
Thought the rats endorsed the notion that if you've nothing really to do or live for then addiction is more of a probability, as evidenced by the socio-economic status of humans and life ruining addictions. Poor people hooked on Myanmars methamphetamine here, places like Baltimore and the Favellas of Rio etc
 
The rat study and the video produced a "yeah that makes sense" notion for me. Ergo, give people a purpose and a fair go and the drug problem could well expire.
 
Ok world leaders, time for some equality....yeah right
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That was the weakest part of the video, make the world into a utopia and there will be no more drug addicts. Thats as implausible as making everyone equal.

taniwharugby

Wonder how they could test rats for gambling addiction....?

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="559364" data-time="1455798136">
Agree Rembrandt. Also the examples given of heroin addiction or the lack of, being the US grunts in the Vietnam War and hospital patients are very particular examples and not "everyday life" examples. The first lot are likely to be, in the main, normal people in an abnormal situation with peripatetic access to the stuff. The latter are not making a choice to have the "super heroin" and are again in an abnormal situation of requiring extreme pain control AND have the usage and dosage of the drug controlled. So whilst interesting, not in itself a complete argument. I actually found the rat story more compelling.</blockquote>
 
The video is 4 minutes long, if you want something more in depth I suggest you read the book. He travels the world and studies addicts in many different situations to come to this conclusion. The Vietnam example is just one chapter

Smudge

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="559371" data-time="1455817877">
<div>
Wonder how they could test rats for gambling addiction....?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Generally they just look for a rat-sized copy of the Best Bets in their back pouch.

Mokey

I don't like it when addicts are referred to as losers. Yes they do bad/stupid things, and can hurt themselves and others with that behaviour, but instead of saying loser, fuck off, I'd rather pinpoint the time they went off the rails and know what happened. Maybe a stress meltdown. Maybe mental illness kicked in eg depression, which doesn't give a shit who you are, and is particularly nasty because it is 'invisible' and those on the outside can't understand why this smart, successful, well-off person could possibly feel wretched, so mock rather than help. Maybe a serious trauma from earlier years they have been repressing rather than dealing with is fighting to surface and the only way they feel a measure of peace is drinking/drugs/gambling etc, because facing that trauma feels too scary or big.
 
Any which way, addicts deserve compassion, tough love, no enabling, and professional help to climb back out of the abyss. Unfortunately most wont get it/or refuse it.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mokey" data-cid="559413" data-time="1455832153">
<div>
...Any which way, addicts deserve compassion, tough love, no enabling, and professional help to climb back out of the abyss. Unfortunately most wont get it/or refuse it.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
This. In my experience. Particularly in blokes.

mariner4life

Sort of following on from that, the Green Party in Aus are toying with a plan to decriminalise Ice and other hard drugs. 
 
My initial reaction was "well that's just typically retarded"
 
But, their point is, addiction should be considered a health problem, not a criminal matter, and the money currently spent policing drugs could be spent on rehab and support services. 
 
On the other hand, i have seen enough of what these drugs can do to people and to families, do we really want to remove a stigma that currently probably prevents many from taking it up?

taniwharugby

thing is seeking help for the addiction isn't illegal.
 
Is there any evidence that shows people with gambling or alcohol addictions are more willing to confront them than those with illegal drug addictions?

antipodean

The point is the resources are better directed at treating it as a health issue than a crime one. If nothing else, it removes the financial incentive for criminal enterprise. A point I made ~25 years ago on 60mins.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="559453" data-time="1455841380">
<div>
 A point I made ~25 years ago on 60mins.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
allegedly :)

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="559453" data-time="1455841380">
<div>
The point is the resources are better directed at treating it as a health issue than a crime one. If nothing else, it removes the financial incentive for criminal enterprise. A point I made ~25 years ago on 60mins.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
but its only a health issue if people seek help.

Paekakboyz

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="559425" data-time="1455835388">
<div>
Sort of following on from that, the Green Party in Aus are toying with a plan to decriminalise Ice and other hard drugs. 
 
My initial reaction was "well that's just typically retarded"
 
But, their point is, addiction should be considered a health problem, not a criminal matter, and the money currently spent policing drugs could be spent on rehab and support services. 
 
On the other hand, i have seen enough of what these drugs can do to people and to families, do we really want to remove a stigma that currently probably prevents many from taking it up?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I don't know how effective that stigma is though, and whether it then contributes to people not seeking support as they'd be called idiots, retards or losers. Totally agree with Mokey that such names don't help and stigmatize people who've made a bad decision or are dealing (or not) with some big issues.
 
If it were legalised and taxed I think we'd see significant resources going to education campaigns that would look at use across the board rather than the 'one puff and you're life is fucked' type messages. Like the depressions ads with JK.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="559472" data-time="1455844363">
allegedly :)
</blockquote>
 
Ha! I'm sure my parents still have the VHS tape somewhere. 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="559473" data-time="1455844410">
but its only a health issue if people seek help.
</blockquote>
 Certainly. The question is how easy is it to seek and receive adequate help. A number of people who are homeless have substance abuse problems and unfortunately a majority of them also have mental health issues. Previously they were in State institutions, but with the "community care model" that mean sending them on their merry way. A change of approach, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/22/home-free'>like Utah's</a> is often more cost effective in the long run.

MajorRage

The thing is though, is that a lot of people with bad bad addictions, are categorised as losers, as the choices they make (which are of course, made for them by the drugs etc), are absolute loser choices.
 
Philip Seymour Hoffman - had the world at his feet, then chose to take so much drugs he killed himself. Left his 3 young children without a father.
Layne Staley - arguably the best vocalist i've ever heard. A true rockstar, living the dream. Decided at his peak, to become a drug taking recluse until it eventually killed him.
 
Yes, these are the extreme end, but in both cases left a huge amount people who admired them, as well as looked up to them to take drugs. There are countless others.
 
I find it pretty hard to refer to them as anything other than losers.

Paekakboyz

I prefer tragic as opposed to loser - PSH sounded like there were mental health issues alongside drug use etc. Suicide and the reasons/rationale is a whole other kettle of fish.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="559506" data-time="1455852559">
Layne Staley - arguably the best vocalist i've ever heard. A true rockstar, living the dream. Decided at his peak, to become a drug taking recluse until it eventually killed him.
</blockquote>
 I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile them bones

The Silver Fern

P and all that jazz