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@catogrande said in Brexit:
Ha! You couldn’t make this shit up!
Apparently The Telegraph did - as Tim Martin points out...
“I was trying to be helpful to the journalist by providing up-to-date anecdotal information on staffing, which clearly demonstrated a very positive situation for Wetherspoon. However, my comments were misreported. The false story, expressed in the headline “Wetherspoons boss calls for more EU migration as bars and restaurants tackle staff shortage” and expressed or implied elsewhere in the article, was that Wetherspoon was suffering staff shortages, which clearly isn’t true, and that I had subsequently been moved to change my stance on immigration, which, as my evidence to the parliament several ago clearly shows, isn’t true either.”
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@victor-meldrew surely not! Journalists bending the truth to fit their agenda?!? Colour me shocked.
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@victor-meldrew NZ 1 Wales 0.
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@victor-meldrew NZ 1 Wales 0.
The UK media are streets ahead in the Just Make Shit Up world championships
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@victor-meldrew Tim Martin got seriously mis-quoted at the beginning of the pandemic around telling his staff "to stack shelves at Tesco" too. Maybe the media have something against the mulleted one?
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
@victor-meldrew Tim Martin got seriously mis-quoted at the beginning of the pandemic around telling his staff "to stack shelves at Tesco" too. Maybe the media have something against the mulleted one?
I remember this. I couldn't see the problem with it at all with respect to the misquote or the clarification.
It's basically the CEO of a company saying "I can't pay you at the moment, I'll register you for Furlough but I have no control over the time taken here, so in the meantime if ou find work elsewhere, I'd strongly recommend you take it". He even then promised that staff that did that will have first option to return to Wetherspoons if they liked. He should have been praised for it.
But of course, it's easier to look at his wealth (of which I'm sure most is paper only) and think he should personally sell his shares/assets to give a cash injection into the company so his staff can be paid ...
It was absurd.
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
@catogrande said in Brexit:
@victor-meldrew Tim Martin got seriously mis-quoted at the beginning of the pandemic around telling his staff "to stack shelves at Tesco" too. Maybe the media have something against the mulleted one?
I remember this. I couldn't see the problem with it at all with respect to the misquote or the clarification.
It's basically the CEO of a company saying "I can't pay you at the moment, I'll register you for Furlough but I have no control over the time taken here, so in the meantime if ou find work elsewhere, I'd strongly recommend you take it". He even then promised that staff that did that will have first option to return to Wetherspoons if they liked. He should have been praised for it.
But of course, it's easier to look at his wealth (of which I'm sure most is paper only) and think he should personally sell his shares/assets to give a cash injection into the company so his staff can be paid ...
It was absurd.But he has a mullet. -
But he backed Brexit so he's fair game?
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@victor-meldrew said in Brexit:
But he backed Brexit so he's fair game?
In the eyes of the media that is probably worse but for me the mullet is unforgivable.
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
page 48, bottom right corner I bet ... Fucking media.
Bottom right column third page of business section. Bit like BBC's 'apology' to Dyson.
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Fascinating little debate going on here at the moment.
Due to a few different factors (pandemic, Brexit mainly) there are a few skills shortages in the country. Truck (HGV) driving is probably the biggest one, but also shortages in a lot of the lesser skilled sectors - fruit picking, catering/hospitality, security, warehouse work. I've also been reading that there is a shortage in some finance / accounting work as well, but I'm not inclined to believe that. In turn, this is now pushing wages up in some of those lesser skilled jobs. Thus, you have:
Remain: Brexit, we fucking told you it was a bad idea, this is exactly what we said would happen, this country is fucked, Johnson is a liar and you fell for it, you utter utter morons!
Leave: Um, this is exactly what we voted for. Wages have been repressed at the lower end for years due to uncontrolled immigrants doing these jobs, and now its time for the rate paid for these to catch up.
Left: Wage growth is only going to push prices up and this will obviously hit those on the lower incomes the most. This is such a destructive thing to happen for these families and its going to make it even harder for them when their situation is almost impossible as it is.
Right: They are the ones getting the pay rises, no? If they aren't then perhaps they should look to pick up some of this lucrative work. By the way, we keep hearing about the illegal migrant crisis, so instead of these guys being a drain, why don't we make them work in some of these jobs and actually earn money / contribute to the economy.
It's fascinating stuff & Brexit is proving to be quite the social experiment most people thought it would be.
@Victor-Meldrew quite interested in your thoughts on this one!
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
Fascinating little debate going on here at the moment.
Due to a few different factors (pandemic, Brexit mainly) there are a few skills shortages in the country. Truck (HGV) driving is probably the biggest one, but also shortages in a lot of the lesser skilled sectors - fruit picking, catering/hospitality, security, warehouse work. I've also been reading that there is a shortage in some finance / accounting work as well, but I'm not inclined to believe that. In turn, this is now pushing wages up in some of those lesser skilled jobs. Thus, you have:
Remain: Brexit, we fucking told you it was a bad idea, this is exactly what we said would happen, this country is fucked, Johnson is a liar and you fell for it, you utter utter morons!
Leave: Um, this is exactly what we voted for. Wages have been repressed at the lower end for years due to uncontrolled immigrants doing these jobs, and now its time for the rate paid for these to catch up.
Left: Wage growth is only going to push prices up and this will obviously hit those on the lower incomes the most. This is such a destructive thing to happen for these families and its going to make it even harder for them when their situation is almost impossible as it is.
Right: They are the ones getting the pay rises, no? If they aren't then perhaps they should look to pick up some of this lucrative work. By the way, we keep hearing about the illegal migrant crisis, so instead of these guys being a drain, why don't we make them work in some of these jobs and actually earn money / contribute to the economy.
It's fascinating stuff & Brexit is proving to be quite the social experiment most people thought it would be.
@Victor-Meldrew quite interested in your thoughts on this one!
You forgot one important aspect about the left leaning remainers, they also want to remain within a couple of miles from where they were born and expect the jobs to come to them
Kent may as well be in Australia as far as they are concerned
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
Fascinating little debate going on here at the moment.
Due to a few different factors (pandemic, Brexit mainly) there are a few skills shortages in the country. Truck (HGV) driving is probably the biggest one, but also shortages in a lot of the lesser skilled sectors - fruit picking, catering/hospitality, security, warehouse work. I've also been reading that there is a shortage in some finance / accounting work as well, but I'm not inclined to believe that. In turn, this is now pushing wages up in some of those lesser skilled jobs. Thus, you have:
Remain: Brexit, we fucking told you it was a bad idea, this is exactly what we said would happen, this country is fucked, Johnson is a liar and you fell for it, you utter utter morons!
Leave: Um, this is exactly what we voted for. Wages have been repressed at the lower end for years due to uncontrolled immigrants doing these jobs, and now its time for the rate paid for these to catch up.
Left: Wage growth is only going to push prices up and this will obviously hit those on the lower incomes the most. This is such a destructive thing to happen for these families and its going to make it even harder for them when their situation is almost impossible as it is.
Right: They are the ones getting the pay rises, no? If they aren't then perhaps they should look to pick up some of this lucrative work. By the way, we keep hearing about the illegal migrant crisis, so instead of these guys being a drain, why don't we make them work in some of these jobs and actually earn money / contribute to the economy.
It's fascinating stuff & Brexit is proving to be quite the social experiment most people thought it would be.
@Victor-Meldrew quite interested in your thoughts on this one!
i apologise in advance for the long-ish reply..
I wonder if the terms Left and Right and Remain or Leave are the best way to describe what seems to me to be the two camps in the UK.
Obvious generalisation, but seems to me the division is between metriopolitan/service industy/media/woke/degree-educated/cosmopolitan/global outlook/transferable skills v local community/works with hands/local root/pride in cultural identity/just get on with life types. The former has lots of money, ambition & power compared to the latter, but the latter has a much clearer sense of identity, values & community. Call them Metros and Provincials.
The former have done well out of the EU, for the latter it's been a bit of a disaster. Not only have they seen jobs disappear to cheaper parts of the EU, but were called racist and xenophobic for pointing out the impact of Eastern European immigration on jobs and local communities - as Gordon Brown showed. Fast forward to Brexit referendum and the 2019 GE and the Metros were shocked to realise they might have the wealth, but they don't have the power any more - and I sense they don't quite know how to handle it. Smart politicians are courting the Provincials, others, like Starmer, just don't know how to react. Difficult to appeal to people you've spent years trying to subvert their decision to leave the EU
Now the cheap labour taps have been turned off, many business will need to respond and stop taking local people for granted and start valuing them - investing in their skills and getting the best out of what has become an expensive resource. That could be a good thing for all in breaking down income barriers and pushing up the UK's appalling productivity and make everyone richer. Big opportunity to level things up, break down regional barriers and make parts of the North as rich and productive as London.
On the other hand, you could get the friction between the two groups growing - industrial action, increased division, culture wars, political violence.
Think there will a bit of friction and uncertainty, but if you look at history, the UK has a pretty good record of coming to pragmatic and sensible solutions which meets everyone's needs
Finally.. Perhaps Brexit isn't a social experiment, but the ending of one? Perhaps it started under Blair where the Metros were meant to provide the wealth to pay for keeping the Provincials happily hidden away and on benefits. But I'm probably being cynical...
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@victor-meldrew as I said, quite interested in what you had to say and you didn’t let me down.
Great post.
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@victor-meldrew said in Brexit:
@majorrage said in Brexit:
Fascinating little debate going on here at the moment.
Due to a few different factors (pandemic, Brexit mainly) there are a few skills shortages in the country. Truck (HGV) driving is probably the biggest one, but also shortages in a lot of the lesser skilled sectors - fruit picking, catering/hospitality, security, warehouse work. I've also been reading that there is a shortage in some finance / accounting work as well, but I'm not inclined to believe that. In turn, this is now pushing wages up in some of those lesser skilled jobs. Thus, you have:
Remain: Brexit, we fucking told you it was a bad idea, this is exactly what we said would happen, this country is fucked, Johnson is a liar and you fell for it, you utter utter morons!
Leave: Um, this is exactly what we voted for. Wages have been repressed at the lower end for years due to uncontrolled immigrants doing these jobs, and now its time for the rate paid for these to catch up.
Left: Wage growth is only going to push prices up and this will obviously hit those on the lower incomes the most. This is such a destructive thing to happen for these families and its going to make it even harder for them when their situation is almost impossible as it is.
Right: They are the ones getting the pay rises, no? If they aren't then perhaps they should look to pick up some of this lucrative work. By the way, we keep hearing about the illegal migrant crisis, so instead of these guys being a drain, why don't we make them work in some of these jobs and actually earn money / contribute to the economy.
It's fascinating stuff & Brexit is proving to be quite the social experiment most people thought it would be.
@Victor-Meldrew quite interested in your thoughts on this one!
i apologise in advance for the long-ish reply..
I wonder if the terms Left and Right and Remain or Leave are the best way to describe what seems to me to be the two camps in the UK.
Obvious generalisation, but seems to me the division is between metriopolitan/service industy/media/woke/degree-educated/cosmopolitan/global outlook/transferable skills v local community/works with hands/local root/pride in cultural identity/just get on with life types. The former has lots of money, ambition & power compared to the latter, but the latter has a much clearer sense of identity, values & community. Call them Metros and Provincials.
The former have done well out of the EU, for the latter it's been a bit of a disaster. Not only have they seen jobs disappear to cheaper parts of the EU, but were called racist and xenophobic for pointing out the impact of Eastern European immigration on jobs and local communities - as Gordon Brown showed. Fast forward to Brexit referendum and the 2019 GE and the Metros were shocked to realise they might have the wealth, but they don't have the power any more - and I sense they don't quite know how to handle it. Smart politicians are courting the Provincials, others, like Starmer, just don't know how to react. Difficult to appeal to people you've spent years trying to subvert their decision to leave the EU
Now the cheap labour taps have been turned off, many business will need to respond and stop taking local people for granted and start valuing them - investing in their skills and getting the best out of what has become an expensive resource. That could be a good thing for all in breaking down income barriers and pushing up the UK's appalling productivity and make everyone richer. Big opportunity to level things up, break down regional barriers and make parts of the North as rich and productive as London.
On the other hand, you could get the friction between the two groups growing - industrial action, increased division, culture wars, political violence.
Think there will a bit of friction and uncertainty, but if you look at history, the UK has a pretty good record of coming to pragmatic and sensible solutions which meets everyone's needs
Finally.. Perhaps Brexit isn't a social experiment, but the ending of one? Perhaps it started under Blair where the Metros were meant to provide the wealth to pay for keeping the Provincials happily hidden away and on benefits. But I'm probably being cynical...
That is fantastically written and I agree with every word - especially the last part!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
That is certainly trade orthodoxy. But if such agreements lead to substantial job losses as e.g. Chinese imports replace Northern jobs, the net is more of the population reliant on social welfare.
It's going to happen anyway, so be prepared to compete . No point in protecting all those highly paid jobs producing those shiny BMW's when your export markets slap quotas on your goods in retaliation.
At the risk of offending the purists, I see no point in facilitating the migration of manufacturing offshore when the crucial overseas competitive advantage is lower/no environmental/labour conditions/social welfare standards. So if the UK has sensible standards in these areas, and its cost of power is competitive, then the labour content of manufacture is going to have to be very high to outweigh appropriate tariffs and the cost of transport from, say, the Far East.
WTO tariffs are inadequate to compensate, so China being admitted was a massive con job. Carbon border tax would be a way of rasing tariffs towards reasonable levels.
A key question becomes the cost of labour. Here things become quite distorted by the minimum wage question. UK has made a big thing of the virtue of setting level for these ever higher, but if that prices manufacture out IMO such minima do more harm than good. Even then, EU and UK cheat by allowing Eastern Europeans in and allowing practices which usurp the regulation, albeit in quite limited areas. Which to me is just a tacit admission the the levels are wrong, even if the concept itself has merit.
Trivial example, maybe, by it seems wholly incoherent to pursue policies which result in chocolate good manufacture in UK to be unable to compete viably with mass production in China and shipping across to the other side of the world. To me bonkers.
As a consequence, I'm not opposed to tariffs being set at a level which protects economies with decent social welfare, environmental and labour laws. WTO levels too low. I'm all for carbon border taxes.
Needs to be managed carefully, for sure. A short-term measure while you address the need to become competitive.
I think it's more fundamental. For now China relies on coal power to produce a huge amount of its energy. The alternatives are more expensive. CBT ought to be retained until and unless China moves to greener energy sources. BTW no idea how anyone can ever verify compliance.
There's very, very few leading edge industries in the EU compared to the US, China or Japan.
Absolutely right.
Now you're taking!
They're returning? And critics said they wouldn't have a bar of it.
Ok, coat time. -
@nostrildamus In reality there is probably an even number of return / leave companies / businesses as with any normal business cycle.
However, you have the remain only championing the leavers, and the leave campaign only championing the returnee's.
There will be strong division in this country until at least Boris is gone. There are parallels with Trump in that people hate everything he says/does because of who he is, not because of what he's saying.
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@victor-meldrew said in Brexit:
@majorrage said in Brexit:
Fascinating little debate going on here at the moment.
Due to a few different factors (pandemic, Brexit mainly) there are a few skills shortages in the country. Truck (HGV) driving is probably the biggest one, but also shortages in a lot of the lesser skilled sectors - fruit picking, catering/hospitality, security, warehouse work. I've also been reading that there is a shortage in some finance / accounting work as well, but I'm not inclined to believe that. In turn, this is now pushing wages up in some of those lesser skilled jobs. Thus, you have:
Remain: Brexit, we fucking told you it was a bad idea, this is exactly what we said would happen, this country is fucked, Johnson is a liar and you fell for it, you utter utter morons!
Leave: Um, this is exactly what we voted for. Wages have been repressed at the lower end for years due to uncontrolled immigrants doing these jobs, and now its time for the rate paid for these to catch up.
Left: Wage growth is only going to push prices up and this will obviously hit those on the lower incomes the most. This is such a destructive thing to happen for these families and its going to make it even harder for them when their situation is almost impossible as it is.
Right: They are the ones getting the pay rises, no? If they aren't then perhaps they should look to pick up some of this lucrative work. By the way, we keep hearing about the illegal migrant crisis, so instead of these guys being a drain, why don't we make them work in some of these jobs and actually earn money / contribute to the economy.
It's fascinating stuff & Brexit is proving to be quite the social experiment most people thought it would be.
@Victor-Meldrew quite interested in your thoughts on this one!
i apologise in advance for the long-ish reply..
I wonder if the terms Left and Right and Remain or Leave are the best way to describe what seems to me to be the two camps in the UK.
Obvious generalisation, but seems to me the division is between metriopolitan/service industy/media/woke/degree-educated/cosmopolitan/global outlook/transferable skills v local community/works with hands/local root/pride in cultural identity/just get on with life types. The former has lots of money, ambition & power compared to the latter, but the latter has a much clearer sense of identity, values & community. Call them Metros and Provincials.
The former have done well out of the EU, for the latter it's been a bit of a disaster. Not only have they seen jobs disappear to cheaper parts of the EU, but were called racist and xenophobic for pointing out the impact of Eastern European immigration on jobs and local communities - as Gordon Brown showed. Fast forward to Brexit referendum and the 2019 GE and the Metros were shocked to realise they might have the wealth, but they don't have the power any more - and I sense they don't quite know how to handle it. Smart politicians are courting the Provincials, others, like Starmer, just don't know how to react. Difficult to appeal to people you've spent years trying to subvert their decision to leave the EU
Now the cheap labour taps have been turned off, many business will need to respond and stop taking local people for granted and start valuing them - investing in their skills and getting the best out of what has become an expensive resource. That could be a good thing for all in breaking down income barriers and pushing up the UK's appalling productivity and make everyone richer. Big opportunity to level things up, break down regional barriers and make parts of the North as rich and productive as London.
On the other hand, you could get the friction between the two groups growing - industrial action, increased division, culture wars, political violence.
Think there will a bit of friction and uncertainty, but if you look at history, the UK has a pretty good record of coming to pragmatic and sensible solutions which meets everyone's needs
Finally.. Perhaps Brexit isn't a social experiment, but the ending of one? Perhaps it started under Blair where the Metros were meant to provide the wealth to pay for keeping the Provincials happily hidden away and on benefits. But I'm probably being cynical...
That is fantastically written and I agree with every word - especially the last part!
Very simplistic IMO. (Although to be fair every argument is simplistic because it's such a massively complex subject).
Correlation doesn't imply causation.
Over the last few decades, while Britian was in the EU, the Metros have done much better than the Provincials. But that's true of just about every country in the developed world (possibly the whole world).
Globalisation happened, and cheaper labour became accessible. Either cheaper labour comes into your country to make the goods if your immigration settings allow it, or cheaper labour overseas means that your companies choose to make goods there and import them instead.
And automation happened, so the relative value of manual work has decreased massively.
These things didn't happen because the UK was in the EU.
For an unskilled workforce, in the past being located near the consumer was a big advantage, because of the cost of shipping raw materials and finished goods. These days it counts for very little, because with automation and global shipping it's cheaper to import. And because the global economy is much more about services then manufacturing, compared to the past.
Cutting off cheap labour, and even enforcing tariffs, is not going to bring back a manufacturing boom. Different skills are needed for a different economic era. I just wish we'd put half the effort into training that we have into arguing about the EU.
Brexit