US Politics



  • A key issue I think is a lot of American's have no faith in their system to ensure justice is served, especially when it comes to cops. To have a protest about a murder like this demanding that the cop be arrested is absurd. He should have been arrested immediately, but the first response from the police was "don't worry he's been fired". That just fueled the fire.

    Things have really gotten out of hand now with Antifa and opportunistic criminals jumping in and making hay. Very sad to see, and the victims will be the hardworking people in those communities.



  • @Frank said in US Politics:

    @barbarian What ARE the causes ?

    Could go deeper into the simmering racial divide and the reasons for that, but that's a little beyond me.

    But that's it. If we're listing the causes of this (many and varied), you have to start with the simmering racial divide that is as old as the country itself, and how that manifests more recently in the area of law enforcement.

    The George Floyd incident was just the catalyst. Saying that this was caused by a murderous cop is like saying the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand caused World War 1. I could also make a Wayne Barnes forward pass causing ABs 07 exit thing here but this thread is enough of a mess without me being so careless as to bring that into it.

    Then you throw in racial inequality (perceived or actual), income inequality, the virus and ensuing unemployment, and just a general sense of anger (which hurts and helps Trump in almost equal measure) and you have a powder keg waiting for a match.

    The extent of these demonstrations shows to me that this has tapped something far deeper than just one bad cop in one city, or some organisation like Antifa or this Governor or that President.



  • @barbarian nice one. I think we really need some authentic info from the looters. The subjects will be overwhelmingly young males. Why mate? What was your reasoning the moment you left where you were to go join the riots? Why didn't you bail out at any stage and go home? Any remorse for the damage? Would you do it again? Lockdown? Who were you angry with? Was it fun?

    And you gotta be ready for any answer they give. Being dismissive and insulting won't provide any insights. We have to know the looters view of their lives in this world, not just cancel them as only thugs. Everyone of them knows looting is fundamentally wrong, yet pushed that aside for some reason.

    I fear that we've created a world where huge tracts of our youth males can see no tangible benefits of modern society. No meaning to strive for. Something's going on with these people and it'll be partially unearthed by a "walk a mile in my shoes" type approach.

    This stuff in US is hugely important globally, and all we're going to see on the media is gargantuan and grotesque finger pointing.



  • Yesterday in London, there was as pretty large mob which went outside 10 Downing Street - they yelled out fuck the police as one. Anitfa sign was front and central.

    Like Covid, it's spreading.

    I certainly side with those upset about Floyd and what caused it. I don't side with rioters, looters and those who like to cause anarchy. I tend to find that the real crossover between the two groups is little.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    But that's it. If we're listing the causes of this (many and varied), you have to start with the simmering racial divide that is as old as the country itself, and how that manifests more recently in the area of law enforcement.

    I'd suggest you need to start with income disparity. The fact that inner-city African Americans are more likely to not be college educated, be from single parent households, be in (relative) poverty, be located in high crime areas and it's small wonder that police, who spend every minute of their working day surrounded by criminals or the victims of crime are on edge.

    Particularly when such interactions are marked by a high propensity for violence amongst suspected criminals.

    Given the marked decline in the employment market, it's not surprising to find white youths all too eager to engage in mindless violence too.

    The media seems to be strangely quiet that the other two officers heavily involved in the events surrounding Floyd's death were Asian and Hispanic.



  • The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.



  • @antipodean said in US Politics:

    The media seems to be strangely quiet that the other two officers heavily involved in the events surrounding Floyd's death were Asian and Hispanic.

    I don't disagree with your post, but just on this I have heard that fact a few times and I wouldn't consider myself to be following the incident forensically.



  • Some FYI.

    US police officers killed by gunfire while on duty. 2017 45 2018 52 2019 48 2020 20

    There is also a category called ( gunfire- inadvertent). So the above are murders.

    Nearly every scenario was a routine piece of police work. Domestic violence call out and traffic stops featuring the most.

    As an American police officer, 1 of your occupation peers gets shot dead every week of the working year. Anyone else that can lay claim to a similar "occupational hazard"?

    https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020



  • @Siam said in US Politics:

    Some FYI.

    US police officers killed by gunfire while on duty. 2017 45 2018 52 2019 48 2020 20

    There is also a category called ( gunfire- inadvertent). So the above are murders.

    Nearly every scenario was a routine piece of police work. Domestic violence call out and traffic stops featuring the most.

    As an American police officer, 1 of your occupation peers gets shot dead every week of the working year. Anyone else that can lay claim to a similar "occupational hazard"?

    https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020

    Something I've always wondered is how disproportionate the statistics are with respect to crimes committed.

    For example, if black men are 3 x more likely to get searched, do they commit 3 x more crime? I'll be honest and say I've never really looked into it, but I wonder how many actual facts are behind the racism.



  • Just watched the video of the murder. It really is unbelievable.

    America has a massive problem with its police. Massive.



  • @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.

    This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    Yesterday in London, there was as pretty large mob which went outside 10 Downing Street - they yelled out fuck the police as one. Anitfa sign was front and central.

    Like Covid, it's spreading.

    I certainly side with those upset about Floyd and what caused it. I don't side with rioters, looters and those who like to cause anarchy. I tend to find that the real crossover between the two groups is little.

    Saw some photo's which suggested UK protestors were largely white? Social distancing was not in evidence.



  • @junior said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.

    This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?

    If you have had colleagues shot and killed on random traffic stops I’d imagine every interaction could be tense. I also thing they train this and it’s clearly dangerous.

    So two factors at play, a poor technique and potentially a wearing down of mental health after prolonged exposure to dangerous situations.



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    For example, if black men are 3 x more likely to get searched, do they commit 3 x more crime? I'll be honest and say I've never really looked into it, but I wonder how many actual facts are behind the racism.

    A good place to start.. Busts a few myths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States



  • @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    @junior said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.

    This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?

    If you have had colleagues shot and killed on random traffic stops I’d imagine every interaction could be tense. I also thing they train this and it’s clearly dangerous.

    So two factors at play, a poor technique and potentially a wearing down of mental health after prolonged exposure to dangerous situations.

    This officer had already been involved in three police shootings, one fatal. That is hardly atypical for a US officer with a couple of decades service.

    There is also always going to be the issue where the police force is always going to be one of those self selecting professions where people at the absolute end of the bell curve end up.



  • @rotated said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    @junior said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.

    This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?

    If you have had colleagues shot and killed on random traffic stops I’d imagine every interaction could be tense. I also thing they train this and it’s clearly dangerous.

    So two factors at play, a poor technique and potentially a wearing down of mental health after prolonged exposure to dangerous situations.

    This officer had already been involved in three police shootings, one fatal. That is hardly atypical for a US officer with a couple of decades service.

    There is also always going to be the issue where the police force is always going to be one of those self selecting professions where people at the absolute end of the bell curve end up.

    Probably angry because he didn't make it into the marines. This way he still gets to wear military style gear and carry a gun...

    The family had an independent autopsy done which is at odds with the official one. Not a good look and will only serve to strengthen distrust in the authorities.

    https://stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300025475/family-autopsy-shows-george-floyd-asphyxiated-by-sustained-pressure

    Lots of conflicting reports here, the police claim that the original 911 caller described the victim as being intoxicated and not in control, which may have heightened the alert level of the arresting officers. Whether that was correct or not I suppose they will test him for toxicology.



  • @canefan said in US Politics:

    The family had an independent autopsy done which is at odds with the official one.

    I'm astonished. What are the odds?



  • An effective polemic against american liberalism:

    https://unherd.com/2020/06/covid-has-exposed-america-as-a-failed-state/



  • @antipodean said in US Politics:

    @canefan said in US Politics:

    The family had an independent autopsy done which is at odds with the official one.

    I'm astonished. What are the odds?

    Yes, quelle surprise



  • This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    7b296b3d-f053-49c4-9a1f-e8d40bd98403-image.png

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.



  • @Tim said in US Politics:

    An effective polemic against american liberalism:

    https://unherd.com/2020/06/covid-has-exposed-america-as-a-failed-state/

    The exporting of industrial capability to China and other cheap labour countries has bitten most of the developed nations in the butt during covid19. And the US complain about loss of intellectual property, but companies are making it easy to do via outsourcing. Unless there is a major philosophical shift and companies accept less profit to manufacture domestically I don't see things changing



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    7b296b3d-f053-49c4-9a1f-e8d40bd98403-image.png

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    I'm sure Trump will retweet and like it....



  • I don't expect China to follow down the Western outsourcing route. They are control freaks, and will want to make sure business is strictly managed. And predominantly Chinese owned



  • Interesting to see whether sweeping social reform can be managed in the USA. Particularly for the health and education systems, where a lot of the inequality was highlighted long before vivid came along to destroy a very fragile employment system.

    In a lot of ways, the wealth of the USA still relies on a slave underclass. But, as a result, they've got the wealth to start fixing it. They just need to prioritise, and in this, reform of the political class needs to happen.

    This concept of voting in DAs and law enforcement officials is a tricky business in gaining impartiality and a culture of fairness (perceived or otherwise).

    @barbarian James Woods is fucking cooked. Why isn't anyone in the right wing side saying "Hey just shut up and worry about acting"?



  • @NTA the bigger question is does the political system want those changes? No evidence to suggest they do



  • @canefan said in US Politics:

    @NTA the bigger question is does the political system want those changes? No evidence to suggest they do

    I'd suggest there's a swamp in need of draining. Maybe Biden can use that slogan in the election?



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    @canefan said in US Politics:

    @NTA the bigger question is does the political system want those changes? No evidence to suggest they do

    I'd suggest there's a swamp in need of draining. Maybe Biden can use that slogan in the election?

    I don't know what it's going to take, the lobby system means all politicians (apart from maybe Bernie) are beholden to big business, so health reform will be tricky for starters



  • Yeah exactly. And Biden isn't really the man to fix any of these problems. His choice of VP will be fascinating though. There will be a real push for him to pick someone young, black/hispanic, and in touch with whatever movement this is.

    But given his age (and his fragile mental state), the choice of VP will take on far greater importance. There will also be a temptation to have a older, safe hand in there who could take the reigns if something happened to old Joe.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    Yeah exactly. And Biden isn't really the man to fix any of these problems. His choice of VP will be fascinating though. There will be a real push for him to pick someone young, black/hispanic, and in touch with whatever movement this is.

    But given his age (and his fragile mental state), the choice of VP will take on far greater importance. There will also be a temptation to have a older, safe hand in there who could take the reigns if something happened to old Joe.

    Hasn't he already committed to a woman VP?



  • @barbarian if the Dems are to beat Trump it will be because Trump galvanized them rather than Biden. He looks old and doddery



  • @Tim Excellent article. Cheers.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    7b296b3d-f053-49c4-9a1f-e8d40bd98403-image.png

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    Well James Woods isn't well mentally.

    For all the partisan ranting, this is a bipartisan policy outcome. Both parties have consciously worked towards the disenfranchisement of the middle class.



  • @antipodean said in US Politics:

    @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    7b296b3d-f053-49c4-9a1f-e8d40bd98403-image.png

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    Well James Woods isn't well mentally.

    For all the partisan ranting, this is a bipartisan policy outcome. Both parties have consciously worked towards the disenfranchisement of the middle class.

    This. Both parties strive to see people as part of seperate groups, and turn those groups on each other.

    Be it race, sexual orientation, views on guns or abortion, whatever.

    Democrats think Republicans are evil, Rebublicans think Democrats are immoral and want to destroy the country. So when horrible things happen like what this cop did, it's like lighting a flame on a powder keg.

    Nobody on either side of the political divides is trying to unite, it's all attack for their own advantage. It's a mess.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    He didn't say they were to blame for this.



  • @Winger said in US Politics:

    @barbarian said in US Politics:

    This kind of sums up some of the problem. James Woods (the actor) has gone off the deep end a bit in recent years, but has big support from the right-wing MAGA crowd on Twitter. This was what he put up today:

    What sort of twisted mindset do you have to have to look at these protests and say 'Obama and Hillary are to blame for this'!?!?

    It's the response of someone who isn't well mentally.

    He didn't say they were to blame for this.

    Bullshit, that's exactly what he meant by that post. He's part of the problem (as was Obama).



  • @Kirwan total lack of understanding and respect on both sides. It's so bad now that there are large groups that can find zero merit in anything the other says



  • @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    This. Both parties strive to see people as part of seperate groups, and turn those groups on each other. Be it race, sexual orientation, views on guns or abortion, whatever. Democrats think Republicans are evil, Rebublicans think Democrats are immoral and want to destroy the country. So when horrible things happen like what this cop did, it's like lighting a flame on a powder keg. Nobody on either side of the political divides is trying to unite, it's all attack for their own advantage. It's a mess.

    Or perhaps the divide is with the people themselves?

    One group is happy with liberal immigration, outsourcing, chinese imports, etc, and thinks being socially progressive makes them good people. They struggle to understand how anyone could disagree with policies & beliefs that are obviously moral and right. Say, 30% of the population, quite wealthy, pretty much insulated from the effects of the policies they espouse.

    The other group sees too much immigration, cheap imports and economic policy as a threat to their prospects, have seen declining prosperity and who feel left behind and taken for granted. They are far more motivated by economic need than "social justice" and resent being labelled somehow morally inferior for thinking this. Say 30% who feel pretty powerless and ignored.

    The first group isn't going to give up their position of power and moral beliefs without a fight and the latter group aren't going to go away. The US needs serious leaders who want to unify people, but when you look at the political "giants" of the last ten years, the likes of Obama, Trump, Biden and Pelosi come to mind. That pretty much says it all.





  • @Tim said in US Politics:

    Ridiculous. Stuff like that makes a mockery of a serious issue



  • A couple of years old but very relevant


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