The Education System
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="585808" data-time="1465433667">
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<p>Nick MBA's are usually but not exclusively the domain of the knob-jockey.</p>
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<p>Only going on the sample size I've been given ;)</p> -
<p>I listened to a Ted Talk from current <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='
'>US Senator Ben Sasse</a>. He essentially says that most kids learn nothing from College and even though more people are going there, we aren't getting any benefit from it. He doesn't exactly come up with solutions though.</p>
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<p>I don't think I learned very much from university. It got me a decent paying job so that is good but I think I could have learned everything I needed to at university in about 3 months. When I left university, I actually started to read again and enjoy learning. The whole education industry just seems massively inefficient. University wasn't a great time for me for other reasons, so my thoughts are probably somewhat affected by that.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="585695" data-time="1465388441">
<div>Donsteppa
<p>I thin it's less private/technical institutions offer degrees in competition with universities and more they offer them in conjunction and develop curriculum that meet specific needs. As long ago as I was at uni (mid 90s) I had a mate who chose to do his accounting degree at Wintec as oppose to the Uni for the practical aspects and his at the time perceived lack of academic rigour. Of my bean counter mates (and there's lots of them) he's probably one of the top earners and he's adamant today he likely wouldn't have got through at the uni. But he hires new staff he likes to have a balance from both as he thinks it's good having different backgrounds and viewpoints. </p>
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<p>Some form of education can point people in their 'right' direction. I have an aunty who spent 30 years of her working life picking apples and doing other low skilled work before she did a counselling course at EIT because she was working as overnight stay person for IHC people. She went from the course, to a diploma to a Bachelors and then a Masters. She did this in her 50s because the opportunities to do so weren't available to her in her 20s. One of my cousins has done the same thing (if you go see a Maori counsellor in HB there's a good chance they're related to me) but she's only in her early 30s now but she was able to transition from shitty school to degree courses at Massey via EIT.</p>
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<p>I'm still slightly more cynical than you on why the Polytechnics (or as they rebranded themselves, Institutes of Technology ) introduced degree level courses. I'm sure you're right that there are benefits from their degree level courses, but when it comes to valuing the trades I'll stand by the idea that;</p>
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<p style="margin-left:40px;">Polytechnics rebranding themselves as ITP's and offering new degree courses, and AIT and Unitec each positioning to become a University*, was yet another subliminal message: even the traditional technical colleges think degrees are more important and are the way of the future - rather than the trades. </p>
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<p><span style="font-size:10px;">* Other newly rebranded ITP's undoubtedly would have tried had Unitec not been rebuffed</span></p>
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<p>(And yes, I do say that with two University qualifications that I'm very fond of on my CV )</p>
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<p>You raise another good point that sometimes bothers me. So much of the careers profession and wider information sources are (rightly) aimed at school students and school leavers. However, the danger is that can just become the default position for careers information, advice, and campaigns. Some of the most interesting students I worked with had worked in one career field for 20 - 30 years before taking three to four years out to retrain. Their reasoning often being that they still have 20 - 25 years left in the labour force at the end of their studies.</p>
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<p>As well as neglecting potential midlife career changers at times, it also inadvertently puts more pressure on people to "get it right for life" at the age of 17... when that's not the reality of the world for most people.</p> -
<p>I know someone who was at Unitec's QA Dept at the time they were trying to become a university.</p>
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<p>They very much wanted the prestige and dollars that came with university status and made it clear they had no qualms about ditching trade oriented programmes unless they could talk them up to degree status</p> -
<p>Firstly, I wasn't suggesting someone should just go to University to try it, but if there is something a student wants to try then they should do it. One semester isn't going to leave them with a crippling life long debt. Maybe Jegga can give us more insight but I think* the average new tradie can rack up a student debt too as they often have qualifications they need to obtain.</p>
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<p>* I've got a cousin who is a builder who had to do some training to even get in the running for an apprenticeship, I'm making an assumption that this is common but as I said Jegga (or other tradies out there) might be able to give us a better view.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="585883" data-time="1465451119">
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<p>I know someone who was at Unitec's QA Dept at the time they were trying to become a university.</p>
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<p>They very much wanted the prestige and dollars that came with university status and made it clear they had no qualms about ditching trade oriented programmes unless they could talk them up to degree status</p>
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<p>There's probably a bit of sink or swim in it to - the dollars are definitely the key. My school likely wouldn't exist if we hadn't transitioned to degree programmes and for certain subjects (Audio, Music, Film and TV) our graduates are highly valued by the industry (as they're practical). And quite frankly, the compliance that private/transitioning to degree institutions have to undertake is actually really robust - the level of oversight by regulators is much higher than what the original uni's get.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">I'm not anti-academia. I'm anti the dumbing down of tertiary institutions at the expense of recognition of other paths. Someone said you basically need a masters to get anywhere these days - that is fucked up nonsense.
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<p>I think that is more a reflection of a societal shift due to natural development. 200 year ago Universities were only for the extremely wealthy, 100 years ago it was the same but with the extremely bright as well, in my parents generation it was still really exclusive. But there was a reason for that, low skilled, semi skilled employment was numerous and well compensated for. Things have changed now, tertiary institutions teach a much larger range of subjects and skills to meet the demands of the modern world.</p>
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<p>TBC ...</p> -
<p>ITP's numbers are getting whittled down similar to what happened with the ITO sector, except there were a fair few more ITO's than we've every had polytechnics. There's a number of layers at ITP's with foundation level courses (free or low fee) then cert, dip, degree level stuff. Nursing is pretty big at a couple of places and trade is a key offering for most of them. Which you'd expect given post-quake plus housing pressures. Interesting conversations happening about how short a course is viable too. </p>
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<p>Totally agree there is a more academic or broader focus by several organisations. I guess they are going for a mix of more student fee income and less contestable funding. Overseas students are a huge market but that puts pressure on expectations of quality - don't want a Fonterra level issue for our education tourism bizo.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="585930" data-time="1465460308">
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<p>Firstly, I wasn't suggesting someone should just go to University to try it, but if there is something a student wants to try then they should do it. One semester isn't going to leave them with a crippling life long debt. Maybe Jegga can give us more insight but I think* the average new tradie can rack up a student debt too as they often have qualifications they need to obtain.</p>
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<p>* I<strong>'ve got a cousin who is a builder who had to do some training to even get in the running for an apprenticeship, I'm making an assumption that this is common</strong> but as I said Jegga (or other tradies out there) might be able to give us a better view.</p>
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<p>Based on past experiences I'm not a fan at all of those courses, they aren't compulsory though. They are probably a good idea for people wanting to be electricians, gasfitters or plumbers imho .</p>
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<p>I hope you don't think I don't value or respect university and tertiary education .</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="585803" data-time="1465433121">
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<p>I've been trying to let it pass but I no longer can!</p>
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<p>What is WT Family? Wider Training Family?</p>
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<p>White Trash I assumed.</p>
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<p>Re MBA's. In the US your career in finance is very much capped now if you don't have an MBA. Or even in general senior management. Its starting to go that was in the UK too. The path now is get degree, get job, work till 30 / 35, do MBA, get promoted. They are utterly worthless IMHO in terms of learning, but they are fantastic networking oportunities. You end up with this very high powered group of contacts all moving up & ambitious as fuck. That's really what an MBA is for. My ex did one at Harvard & said its literally $200k to meet 50 incredibly useful people who you can leverage to get jobs etc.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="585965" data-time="1465472744">
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<p> My ex did one at Harvard & said its literally $200k to meet 50 incredibly useful people who you can leverage to get jobs etc.</p>
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Did it actually get him a promotion?</p> -
<p>A friend of mine aced Law at uni and went to England and was a builder and then came back to NZ to study Physiotherapy but is now currently training in Pharmacueticals.</p>
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<p>Fair to say that at 40, it has taken him a while to decide what he wants to do. Now designing drugs to fight Cancer (I think)</p>
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<p>He is incredibly bright but you wouldn't know that upon first meeting him</p> -
<p>In the past tradies were often thought of as those who took woodwork/metalwork at school instead of a science, I even remember the relatively new Computer science classes in my 6th form year was often thought of as 'bailout' option for the dummies.</p>
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<p>Nowadays, it is huge business...plus keeping up with the ever changing world of legislative requirements for your job makes it even tougher.</p>
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<p>I think the armed forces would be a great way to start a career.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="586013" data-time="1465507063">
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<p>I think the armed forces would be a great way to start a career.</p>
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<p>I'm always pleased at how popular their stands (and the Police stands) are at careers expos. We get told off on the occasions that we haven't managed to get them along :)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="585965" data-time="1465472744"><p>White Trash I assumed.<br>
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Re MBA's. In the US your career in finance is very much capped now if you don't have an MBA. Or even in general senior management. Its starting to go that was in the UK too. The path now is get degree, get job, work till 30 / 35, do MBA, get promoted. They are utterly worthless IMHO in terms of learning, but they are fantastic networking oportunities. You end up with this very high powered group of contacts all moving up & ambitious as fuck. That's really what an MBA is for. My ex did one at Harvard & said its literally $200k to meet 50 incredibly useful people who you can leverage to get jobs etc.</p></blockquote>
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Yeah, that's pretty much it Gollum. People who come back into an organisation with an MBA are really armed with options. The promotions come to stop them from using those options. It seldom works long term and most banks don't mind too much if someone rotates out to a competitor as a lot of the time they'll be back at a higher level some time later in their career with external experience to contribute. -
<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:calibri;">I was made redundant almost 2 years ago. </span></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:calibri;">Obviously the decision for the restructure was a long drawn out process, so I knew well in advance it was happening. </span></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:calibri;">2 months before my job was to finish, I applied for the Police.</span></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:calibri;">I passed all the initial testings (academic, physical, psychometric) and it was just awaiting the interview. </span></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:calibri;">What I did find odd, was when I went to the 1<sup>st</sup></span> stage of the PT, there were about 30 people, of wide ranging ages and backgrounds, 75/25 gender split I would say.</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:calibri;">Of those 30, only 5 of us that passed the PT, and 3 of those were back for their 2<sup>nd</sup></span> go.</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:calibri;">What amazed me was how far some of them missed the fairly modest requirements by, and worse, they have these requirements on the website you apply through, yet such a large number missed by a long way, I cant understand how or why they would do that - did they just expect to pass, did they not do any training or test themselves beforehand? </span></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:calibri;">As it turned out, the timing for the interview and some other requirements (week of ride-alongs) by the police prior to the interview didn’t work out for me, I eventually withdrew my application.</span></span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="585649" data-time="1465371350"><p>
He's not (known to me)!<br><br>
What has he got to say? I watched for the first 60 seconds and he said nothing. Not promising for investing a further 27 minutes.<br><br></p></blockquote>
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Heres a small transcript:<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="https://imgur.com/gallery/BUXvr">https://imgur.com/gallery/BUXvr</a><br><br>
I like the point he makes for the most part. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="586031" data-time="1465511764">
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<p>Heres a small transcript:<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="https://imgur.com/gallery/BUXvr">https://imgur.com/gallery/BUXvr</a><br><br>
I like the point he makes for the most part.</p>
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<p>Kind of glad I didn't watch the video, that was fluffy as.</p>
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<p>But basically his story is because he was hopeless at his passion then nobody should do something they love.</p>
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<p><span style="color:rgb(204,204,204);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(46,46,46);">Right now, millions of people with degrees and diplomas are out there competing for a relatively narrow set of opportunities that polite society calls “good careers.†Meanwhile, employers are struggling to fill nearly 5.8 million jobs that nobody’s trained to do. This is the skills gap, it’s real, and its cause is actually very simple: when people follow their passion, they miss out on all kinds of opportunities they didn’t even know existed.</span></p>
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<p>Then he makes this statement about people doing degrees and diplomas but apparently the skills gap is because people are following their passion - I'm pretty sure the majority of people doing degrees don't do it because it's their passion, that's not the reason they're missing out on these opportunities (which they may or may not want).</p>
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<p>Personally, my job isn't my passion but it's not going to be the same for everyone as it is for me, or Mike Rowe.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="585937" data-time="1465463745">
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<p>Based on past experiences I'm not a fan at all of those courses, they aren't compulsory though. They are probably a good idea for people wanting to be electricians, gasfitters or plumbers imho .</p>
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<p>I hope you don't think I don't value or respect university and tertiary education .</p>
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<p>WIth pprenticeships - are there enough out there these days?</p>
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<p>Are there enough tradies that can take on apprentices? The cousin I mentioned above had to wait a year and do that course I mentioned at EIT.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="586006" data-time="1465506433">
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<p>A friend of mine aced Law at uni and went to England and was a builder and then came back to NZ to study Physiotherapy but is now currently training in Pharmacueticals.</p>
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<p>Fair to say that at 40, it has taken him a while to decide what he wants to do. Now designing drugs to fight Cancer (I think)</p>
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<p>He is incredibly bright but you wouldn't know that upon first meeting him</p>
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<p>Incredibly bright people are often bored easily.</p>
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<p>Mate of mine since Uni - knew his computer shit inside out, was smart, articulate, but not exactly driven. A couple of family incidents (death of grandparent etc) knocked him around, so he quit about halfway through the course, getting Credit average without really trying.</p>
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<p>Spent the next couple of years working at McDonalds, living with a house full of mates in Sydney. Got a job with a a big printer manufacturer in their service department, and did well out of that. More personal shit (long-term GF split) and then quit and tried something else in sales. Didn't like it, ended up driving buses, met a girl on the northern beaches, and now has two little blokes.</p>
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<p>Drives buses, probably makes similar bank to me, and will have a bitching pension plan. He likes the social aspect of driving a bus, and it gives him a lot of time to just think about stuff.</p>
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<p>Tradies here make a fucking bomb, but then you can understand it; if your toilet is leaking shit everywhere you'll pay anything. I quote $1K to build someone a basic website and they're outraged.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="586043" data-time="1465517140">
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<p>WIth pprenticeships - are there enough out there these days?</p>
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<p>Are there enough tradies that can take on apprentices? The cousin I mentioned above had to wait a year and do that course I mentioned at EIT.</p>
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<p>I don't know if there are enough tradies prepared to take on apprentices these days . It probably varies region to region and across the trades. Some trades like upholstery don't have a lot of people entering them from what I've been told.</p>
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<p>My past experience of employing three apprentices who have done those courses and worked with a few more is, the course makes them think they are further along towards a qualification than they actually are. Every single apprentice I've worked basically expected that they only had to show up every day for another couple of years and I'd just tell them one morning they were qualified. The truth is they all had three or more likely four years ahead of them still which kind of negates the point of the course a fair bit. When I broke the news to them about this they always protested and then I would ask them three or four questions that any qualified builder should know the answers to. None of them ever answered a single one, following it up with a few more usually got the point across. It would suck if you finished the course and then realised after a year of no income and a student loan that you didn't actually like working out in the weather etc , lots of guys I've worked with liked the idea of being a builder but they didn't enjoy the reality of it. Its probably the same for lots of jobs like vets, nurses etc.</p>