Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
So they have found where this person got it, someone in the earlier family didn't disclose a close contact and this close contact was the gym guy.
honestly, no system can handle people lying to it and ignoring protocols.
I was thinking about this, and how much culpability the 21 year old should carry. I think it's similar to drink driving - you know you are at risk after a few pints, but you get behind the wheel anyway. Most of the time you probably get home without a disaster ... but if you have a crash/Covid, it has a massive impact on innocent people. And some people (thankfully almost no one these days) will downplay the risk of driving while drunk/covid
Yet we wouldn't say 'he's only 21, he's stupid, he doesn't know what he's doing' about drink driving? Our system could be better, but goddamn that person has to cop a fair bit of responsibility for this.
Same as the pilot in Taiwan, bad enough to break the rules, even worse to lie about it and slow the response down
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan but but this says we Da bestest!
Taiwan is 3rd, easier with thier 23 mill....
Taiwan has yet to locked down apparently....
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It is becoming more and more obvious that there is a big disconnect between government messaging and platforms used, and South Auckland. So local community leaders and politicians are going to have to step up and go old school boots on the ground, with translators. Then there can be no we didn't know/understand/hear.
This in no way negates my yearning to bitchslap the 21yo, and those who once again have been caught lying or withholding critical information.
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@mokey said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
It is becoming more and more obvious that there is a big disconnect between government messaging and platforms used, and South Auckland. So local community leaders and politicians are going to have to step up and go old school boots on the ground, with translators. Then there can be no we didn't know/understand/hear.
As I said, cheaper than going into lockdown all the time
This in no way negates my yearning to bitchslap the 21yo, and those who once again have been caught lying or withholding critical information.
There have to be repercussions for his actions. Let's not mollycoddle the whole community, they need to act like fucking adults about this
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
There have to be repercussions for his actions. Let's not mollycoddle the whole community, they need to act like fucking adults about this
In a team, if you don't pull your weight, your team mates let you know. I'm not impressed with him here at all - -also it seems our system is so fragile that any unexpected case means L3 lockdowns, which is just a nightmare scenario. And we're at the back fo the queue for vaccination as we're under control.
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@nzzp yet this case wouldnt have been unexpected had the previous family told the truth about contact with this person, so you'd have to think level change was entirely avoidable (the argument we shouldnt have dropped so early the other week is another issue)
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@nzzp while hoping this outbreak can be squished this latest fuck up has to act as the last warning to people imo. From here on out we need to get tougher and there needs to be repercussions for these sorts of actions -
With vaccines coming through we need to hang on so we can drastically reduce the chance of it spreading via our Q facilities. Definitely agree we should be prioritising south Akld alongside Q workers and our vaccination staff. -
@nzzp We are not at the back of the queue for vaccine and we haven't gone into L3 every time we have a case. We didn't for the Defence Force cluster or the Northland one.
I'm as fucked off as anyone about being back at L3 but it is a total misrepresentation to say the govt hasn't learned anything in 12 months. They have made plenty of mistakes but how we respond to Covid has evolved. Unfortunately so has the virus. We simply can't instigate the same policies as the likes of Taiwan and Singapore. Kiwi's are far less quiescent. What can be done on those countries can't be replicated here. The yells of police state would be deafening.
I have been thinking about what needs to be done with this selfish prick who has cost us all a large measure of freedom and the economy millions. I can't see any defence for his actions. Personal responsibility FFS. Yeah a 21 yr old is still a kid, but he knew what he was doing was wrong and thought fuck it anyway.
The problem as I see it is people inherently lie and that is a conundrum for the government. Increase punishments for transgressions. People will simply lie or avoid getting tested at all so they don't get found out.
I have been told by a very senior source that Ministry of Health are pretty sure how this latest outbreak got across the border but it can't be proven. Not blaming the woman at the airport as she may not be patient 0 but someone contracted it at the airport and the very high suspicion is they were friendly with someone they wouldn't want their partner to know about. So they lie. More draconian measures simply increases the probability that people will cover up their actions.
We have thousands of exampoles of people not doing the right thing. Just look at the queues to get out of Auckland.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp We are not at the back of the queue for vaccine and we haven't gone into L3 every time we have a case. We didn't for the Defence Force cluster or the Northland one.
I agree - but the last two 'unexpected' cases in teh community have gone straight to L3. I don't think the government have another option with our current culture. Our collective actions - not scanning, not socially distancing, not wearing masks by default - is leaving us vulnerable to outbreaks. That leaves us in a fragile system.
Edit: I didn't address the 'back of the queue' comment -- but we sure as hell aren't at the front. Not much we can do there, but we're going to be exposed for some considerable time waiting to get enough people vaccinated.
Seriously, we need culture change in this area, and that's going to hard work, at best moderately effective, and bloody unpopular. If we don't commit to that, then we will keep a fragile system that means that we'll be yo-yoing in and out of levels as we won't have a choice.
I'm as fucked off as anyone about being back at L3 but it is a total misrepresentation to say the govt hasn't learned anything in 12 months.
You'll note I didn't say that. The government have definitely evolved and responded, but it feels very reactionary. The cost of the last two lockdowns would comfortably have covered (for instance) a bluetooth card for everyone in the country. We don't seem to be proactive in wanting to change with our 'she'll be right' attitude. If we take as a given that the virus will cross the border occasionally, how do we build a resilient system inside NZ to avoid that? That is our challenge I'd say
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@dogmeat One thing I can't understand is the whole country not going to L3. As you point out there are alot of people heading out when it's announced.
It's not like there is a wall/moat preventing people from leaving.
We are a small country and don't restrict people's movement so surely a nationwide lockdown is the safest option to prevent community transmission.
As others have mentioned, we appear to rely on luck to stop the spread.
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The NZ mentality is a massive problem. I don't know how you explain to people (all people, as dogmeat says, those fleeing for their baches are just as culpable as those in South Auckland) that not doing the simple things (masks, scanning, self iso and testing if you feel ill, obeying instructions when given) have a tangible destructive effect on everyone, including the people themselves.
"Don't like lockdown?"
"Stressed that your kids have to stay home?"
"Worried about your business/ job security?"Then don't break the fucking rules
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
The NZ mentality is a massive problem.
I'm a goddamn broken record on this, but if I were a benevolent dictator, I'd be pumping money into advertising campaigns driving simple messages, delivered by celebrities and stars.
No scan, no service
Mask up
Social distancing
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@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
The NZ mentality is a massive problem.
I'm a goddamn broken record on this, but if I were a benevolent dictator, I'd be pumping money into advertising campaigns driving simple messages, delivered by celebrities and stars.
No scan, no service
Mask up
Social distancing
And pushing that message with an army of people out in the community, at malls schools clubs and churches to name a few places. Sounds too simple to work, but it would be more constructive than just asking people to be kind. And cheaper than lockdowns
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The kind thing is part of the problem. That implies current events aren't a big deal and it's not that bad if you ignore rules. As is the team of 5 million. This leads people to think that the actions of one won't matter in the bigger scheme of things, and as fuckface has just demonstrated, this is completely false.
Far too many years in government communications has me silently screaming about the foolish messaging. Jacinda should know better, but she loves her catch phrases.
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This guy is on the same page. South Auckland is on the front lines. Pay to get people to help spread the message. If it is too late to get existing staff or new staff up to speed early, enlist the help of community leaders and maybe offer some form of incentive. Try to create a real team atmosphere where people want to take responsibility for each other's actions
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@kirwan Hard to justify economically I guess. No cases in Dunedin since April last year. Asking a lot of businesses down there to go through the same pain as Auckland.
People are morons.
I'm with @nzzp with the benevolent dictator thing, only I wouldn't be very benevolent.
Was out dining when notification came through. Was able to watch presser on phone but clearly most tables didn't. As the rumour got around the restaurant it was interesting to see peoples reactions. The staff in particular were devastated as they don't know if they'll be paid but even diners looked crestfallen.
The place completely emptied in about 20 minutes. We kicked on and ended up in a bar on the waterfront that was heaving. I think we were the only two papalagi there. Having read @JK s comments, I'm now wondering how many of the punters might have come in from Papatoetoe for the night....
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@kirwan Hard to justify economically I guess. No cases in Dunedin since April last year. Asking a lot of businesses down there to go through the same pain as Auckland.
People are morons.
I'm with @nzzp with the benevolent dictator thing, only I wouldn't be very benevolent.
Was out dining when notification came through. Was able to watch presser on phone but clearly most tables didn't. As the rumour got around the restaurant it was interesting to see peoples reactions. The staff in particular were devastated as they don't know if they'll be paid but even diners looked crestfallen.
The place completely emptied in about 20 minutes. We kicked on and ended up in a bar on the waterfront that was heaving. I think we were the only two papalagi there. Having read @JK s comments, I'm now wondering how many of the punters might have come in from Papatoetoe for the night....
Potentially a few eh. We found town got suddenly much busier from 9pm. One place we tried to go in to was exit only so no new patrons allowed in after the announcement
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@winger said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
It's going to be a long and tortuous path to stability if the goal remains elimination until vaccination.
Do you really think the vaccine will make any difference? It will be say oh there's a new variant (that will go on forever) that needs yet another vaccine. That isn't ready yet.
My view is it won't stop until people collectively stop being so very compliant (and even want to punish people or dob people in who aren't good children). And accept that trying to stop a virus is like trying to stop the tide coming in. And think that maybe the way we did things in the past wasn't so bad.
Shit man, I don't know. I've been saying for a long time that I'd like to hear some thoughts on the state of play needed for borders to open up and regular lockdowns to stop. Like you, I'm not that confident in it happening, we all seem to be really supportive of these repeat lockdowns (see election results over the last 12 months around the world)
I'm certainly of the view that elimination policy is a fallacy, and we need to move on from that.
Our initial strategy bought us valuable time and we wasted it
that has happened everywhere in Australasia (perhaps outside NSW?)
I really wan tto know what is better about our preparedness now than 12 months ago. What is our medical capacity. How well does our tracing now work? What better data are we using to make decisions.
Because, from the outside, it looks like we are in the same place as 12 months ago, making the same decisions.
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@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@winger said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
It's going to be a long and tortuous path to stability if the goal remains elimination until vaccination.
Do you really think the vaccine will make any difference? It will be say oh there's a new variant (that will go on forever) that needs yet another vaccine. That isn't ready yet.
My view is it won't stop until people collectively stop being so very compliant (and even want to punish people or dob people in who aren't good children). And accept that trying to stop a virus is like trying to stop the tide coming in. And think that maybe the way we did things in the past wasn't so bad.
Shit man, I don't know. I've been saying for a long time that I'd like to hear some thoughts on the state of play needed for borders to open up and regular lockdowns to stop. Like you, I'm not that confident in it happening, we all seem to be really supportive of these repeat lockdowns (see election results over the last 12 months around the world)
I'm certainly of the view that elimination policy is a fallacy, and we need to move on from that.
Our initial strategy bought us valuable time and we wasted it
that has happened everywhere in Australasia (perhaps outside NSW?)
I really wan tto know what is better about our preparedness now than 12 months ago. What is our medical capacity. How well does our tracing now work? What better data are we using to make decisions.
Because, from the outside, it looks like we are in the same place as 12 months ago, making the same decisions.
I was totally on board with the flatten the curve idea. The killer part of Covid is how infectious it is, which can quickly overwhelm health systems and people that need care can't get it.
Completely ridding society of the virus altogether and implementing hard lockdowns whenever it rears its head is a lofty goal and a much tougher sell for me.
I guess with the vaccine on the horizon they're going to wait for that before changing the approach to managing the virus within the community without lockdowns.