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Regarding all of the military type gear hasn’t there been a problem for quite a long time now that police were given budgets (I think from a federal fund?) for anti-terrorism equipment and have been buying and training with all sorts of OTT stuff that they are itching to use?
There was a fair bit in the news about it a few years ago. -
@Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.
Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.
Qld police are going down that route with the introduction of the vests and have copped criticism for it. The problem is, with all the gear police are expected to carry (Bodyworn camera, radio, cuffs, baton, cap spray, taser, first aid kit, notebook, knife, safety gloves, firearm, spare ammo, torch) you need a vest, otherwise all that shit is crammed around your waist. It gets bloody heavy and can lead to injuries.
There may be practical reasons to wear them. But it shouldn't make you act like John Mclane when you do.
Easier said than done
Must be a very tough job, made harder over there with the high levels of gun possession. But 3 officers watching one officer choke a guy to death over 8 minutes with no obvious signs of resistance all caught on film is a bad look
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@Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:
@junior said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.
Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.
Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.
Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).
It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.
This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?
I haven't seen the full video so I am not commenting specifically on this situation, but any use of force used by police can look really bad when you only see part of the interaction.
I have had many a wrestle with people not wanting to be arrested, even for very minor stuff. I have had a guy "surrender" after I had him pinned to the ground. He even said "I can't breath." I relaxed a little to make things easier for him and guess what? He was back up fighting full on and I copped multiple punches to the head leading to weeks of headaches and stitches in my lip. I haven't made that mistake since. Most cops will have a similar story.
Sometimes the most effective way to control someone is to control their head. It doesn't look good, but it is effective. Even when people are cuffed, if they are motivated enough they can still cause you damage.
It is dangerous leaving your bodyweight on someone after a struggle. You need to very closely monitor them to make sure they are good and at least get them in the recovery position as soon as possible. It's a balancing act. You need to keep control of them and ensure your safety as well as make sure they are ok. If they have existing medical conditions, or under the influence of drugs etc, the risk increases, for the one arrested and for the cop.
Having to use force is shit. There are so many ways it can go wrong.
Thanks for the perspective. You guys have a tough job, that's for sure.
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Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)
The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
The problem was accelerated when old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc got sold to police forces. -
@Duluth said in US Politics:
Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)
The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
The problem was accelerated with old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc getting sold to police forces.On the flip side, you need the police equipped to deal with situations in a timely and effective manner, and they may need the military type tools to do this.
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@Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:
@Duluth said in US Politics:
Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)
The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
The problem was accelerated with old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc getting sold to police forces.On the flip side, you need the police equipped to deal with situations in a timely and effective manner, and they may need the military type tools to do this.
It’s the whole escalation of equipment argument though. Just like gun control where having a rifle to hunt with has escalated to having automatic assault weapons.
Military weapons are designed for war not for policing. They were buying up things like armoured personnel carriers.
They have also gone from specialists, such as SWAT teams to equipping barely trained cowboys with enough gear to take down a small country. -
@antipodean as astonished at the first autopsy indicating it wasn't due to suffocation?
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:
@Duluth said in US Politics:
Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)
The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
The problem was accelerated with old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc getting sold to police forces.On the flip side, you need the police equipped to deal with situations in a timely and effective manner, and they may need the military type tools to do this.
They have also gone from specialists, such as SWAT teams to equipping barely trained cowboys with enough gear to take down a small country.
Are you talking about the US?
Re military style weapons for the police. Qld have introduced them on a limited scale to trained officers, meaning some patrols cars will be carrying them. NZ appears to be the same. This is so police have some sort of ability to respond to an active shooter. Even though we carry side arms, they are only useful up to 20 metres if you are a good shot. Useless against someone carrying a rifle. Police cannot afford to lose any use of force situations, let alone ones involving an active shooter.
Police need to be better equipped than the offenders. I guess it's an arms race...
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
I was a little concerned after Corona but I think the footage of the last few nights settles it.
Congrats on 4 more years Mr Trump.
Mate, this is a truly bizarre attitude and conclusion.
These protests are no longer characterised by 'racial justice' they are now representative of random assaults on the street, vandalism, arson, destruction of peoples livelihoods and multiple murders (unsure how much footage is circulating in msm but their is plenty on social potentially further discrediting the CNN types ). Democrats have largely been in support of the protests (and antifa) while Republicans have largely been against and Trump in particular has been strongly against. Support for Federal & Military action to shutdown the protests is now in the majority (https://assets.morningconsult.com/wp-uploads/2020/06/01181629/2005131_crosstabs_POLICE_RVs_FINAL_LM-1.pdf) and democrat State representatives have proven they will not help protect people or property, a terrific advertisement for the importance of the 2nd amendment.
Not holding my breath for BLM to actually give a damn about David Dorn or any other casualty of this. Black lives only matter to these people if it achieves a political aim.
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@Paekakboyz said in US Politics:
@antipodean as astonished at the first autopsy indicating it wasn't due to suffocation?
Excited delirium is a thing. As is the observation that consultants tend to provide the outcomes you hired them for...
The broader problem is competing autopsies make the prosecutor's job much harder.
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
I was a little concerned after Corona but I think the footage of the last few nights settles it.
Congrats on 4 more years Mr Trump.
Mate, this is a truly bizarre attitude and conclusion.
These protests are no longer characterised by 'racial justice' they are now representative of random assaults on the street, vandalism, arson, destruction of peoples livelihoods and multiple murders (unsure how much footage is circulating in msm but their is plenty on social potentially further discrediting the CNN types ). Democrats have largely been in support of the protests (and antifa) while Republicans have largely been against and Trump in particular has been strongly against. Support for Federal & Military action to shutdown the protests is now in the majority (https://assets.morningconsult.com/wp-uploads/2020/06/01181629/2005131_crosstabs_POLICE_RVs_FINAL_LM-1.pdf) and democrat State representatives have proven they will not help protect people or property, a terrific advertisement for the importance of the 2nd amendment.
Not holding my breath for BLM to actually give a damn about David Dorn or any other casualty of this. Black lives only matter to these people if it achieves a political aim.
Hang on. You have fallen into the trap of not seperating the actual peaceful protests from those looking to take advantage of civil disobedience. It isn't a party line thing at all. People regardless of political slant are against assault, looting, rioting etc (as shown by laws agreed as such)
According to the tables linked (very good thank you) 72% of voters in total (all 'sides') think it is important for the President to address racial inequality in the U.S., which refers to differences across races in income, access to quality healthcare, access to voting rights or general quality of life?
83% of voters think it is important for the public to address the same.That's a large majority that see a problem here. Yes 54% of 'Reps' are in the 'do not support' categories regarding protestors but this survey does not differentiate at all between protestors and 'others' and the majority of Reps are sympathetic with the message.
That implies to me that they would be fine with peaceful protests, just not the stirred up minority taking advantage to be lawless. -
Stating that this will ensure Trump is re-elected is pretty ridiculous. It's June, and given how quickly things have changed since January you'd be mad to make any sort of prediction for an event that's five months away. No result would shock me at this stage - Trump/Biden landslides, or it coming down to a handful of college votes.
I don't think these protests will be a lethal blow to his Presidency, but I also don't think they help him. Surely any rational person can see the US is a complete mess at the moment. Regardless of how or why that may be the case it doesn't reflect well on the sitting President, especially one whose central platform was to 'make America great again'.
The pre-conditions for a first term President being voted out are there, as they were for GHWB and Carter. But we're in a very different place to where we were in 1992 or 1980 so it's almost impossible to make any sort of prediction.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
Excited delirium is a thing. As is the observation that consultants tend to provide the outcomes you hired them for...
The broader problem is competing autopsies make the prosecutor's job much harder.
One thing that complicates these autopsies is the Dr that is usually involved
There's a massive amount of money in cases like this so they get the best doctor they can. One doctor has gotten so much experience he's become the default choice - Dr Micheal Baden
There's nothing wrong with paying for the best but it does make conspiracy theorists get over excited when they see the cases he's been involved in: JFK, OJ, Phil Spector, Aaron Hernandez, Michael Brown, Jeffrey Epstein and now this case.
He used to tell some funny stories about autopsies on 'Red Eye' years ago.. he's seen a lot of weird shit
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