Peyper Stats Vs AB
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Gday all, thought I would quickly have a look at the AB's stats for 2016 and it quickly became apparent how lopsided games with Peyper have been. Stats speak for themselves. Hopefully no errors, stats taken from NZ Herald site.
Games excluding Peyper
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Even Barnes looks good by comparison!
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Sample size is too small methinks.
Interesting correlation between low % possession and number of penalties, small sample size disclaimer.
Would be interested to see the rest of Peyper's stats by game.
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Interesting stats. I'm not so sure they mean a lot. You would have to go back and look at the yellow cards we have conceded in those games and see whether or not they are justified.
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I have to say when Peyper first came on the scene I had high hopes. His first few Super Rugby games were very good. He has been poor in recent times, he had a mare for Eng vs Fiji opening game of RWC.
Just give us Gardiner for every game please. Otherwise Owens or Garcès.
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@infidel said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
Sample size is too small methinks.
Interesting correlation between low % possession and number of penalties, small sample size disclaimer.
Would be interested to see the rest of Peyper's stats by game.
Yeah for sure sample is very small and you can't really draw too many conclusions but interesting none the less. Also interesting we had him 4 times in one year.
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In the 3 games on tour, the opposition has conceded 4 penalties in each match. Thats a really low amount. I thinks its related to the quality of our breakdown work.. we aren't putting much pressure on the opposition ball
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@Duluth said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
In the 3 games on tour, the opposition has conceded 4 penalties. Thats a really low amount. I thinks its related to the quality of our breakdown work.. we aren't putting much pressure on the opposition ball
Wow, that's amazing.
I think your breakdown causation/correlation point is a good one.
As an aside. There were a few times on the weekend v the Irish when I would start to get a bit excited when it looked like an Irish carrier was about to get isolated, but then we either got blown away by the clean out , or simply gave it no notice as moved to fan out on pure defence. This was in the second half, was frustrating as I thought we really needed some possession then.
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@Duluth Are we not putting pressure on the ball because we seem more likely to get pinged than the opposition? It looked to me in Dublin like the ABs were consciously avoiding the breakdown, maybe backing their defence rather than risk an inevitable penalty and potential YC from a guy who had different standards for the 2 teams. It very nearly worked flawlessly too, Fekitoa giving away a moronic yellow wasn't in the script.
Edit: that may explain the low possession too. Hard to say with the small sample size of course.
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Yeah, that might explain it
I'm interested to see how many penalties the Aussie trio earns against the Irish. With Pocock and/or Hooper they should be having more of a crack at the ball
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Without it becoming too much of pedantry contest, I think you'd need to include what the penalties were for - to get some insight into areas of concern/disbelief
And you'd need to compare another one or two team's results/offences in a similar fashion.
I might even get around to it at some point, but I'm too knackered this evening.
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Giving away an early offside penalty in the first few minutes as we 'test' the day's offside setting can't help.
Offside penalty, bang it into touch 40m for a lineout - resulting in rolling maul. That gets brought down (inevitable), and already in first few minutes ref is thinking about cards and keeping a mental tally.
Our offside line has had me yelling at the TV a few times this year.
After these 2 games v Ireland, I think we should add picking up or kicking a ball at the halfbacks feet at the back of a ruck to the list of "not worth it".
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Is Peyper too harsh?
Or is every other ref too lenient?
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@NTA said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
Is Peyper too harsh?
Or is every other ref too lenient?
I know this is a troll, but when one side is getting pinged for everything, and the other wins penalties at the ruck without releasing players or being on their feet, then the relevant question should be is Peyper incompetent/or a homer?
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Our offside penalties seem to be the result of our pillar/post defenders playing on anticipation, and everyone following them (as they should). The start to come forward when they think the halfback is going to pull the ball out, which is great when it's right, but when it's not...
I have noticed a few occasions, and at least a couple on the weekend, where the halfback looks like he is picking it up, but gets a knock or the ball moves, so he pulls out, but our boys have already gone. whistle. penalty. Peyper let a couple go because the guy going forward stopped and had not effect on play, but blew others.
There are definitely things for us to work on, even with a poor ref performance.
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@mariner4life said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
I have noticed a few occasions, and at least a couple on the weekend, where the halfback looks like he is picking it up, but gets a knock or the ball moves, so he pulls out
That should be a penalty for baulking.
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@Kirwan said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
@NTA said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
Is Peyper too harsh?
Or is every other ref too lenient?
I know this is a troll, but when one side is getting pinged for everything, and the other wins penalties at the ruck without releasing players or being on their feet, then the relevant question should be is Peyper incompetent/or a homer?
There are a few factors, not the least of which is the ref's style. If they tend to give attacking rucks a bit more sway (lot of SH refs - particularly Peyper, Joubers, Marius - are like this) and you spend most of your time defending, expect to get pinged more.
If your game plan is built around defending for long periods then counterattack - like the ABs - then that might affect how you're going to draw the ref's ire.
Peyper is very much into letting the players sort it out BUT once he's made his mind up on something, it doesn't tend to change.
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@antipodean said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
@mariner4life said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
I have noticed a few occasions, and at least a couple on the weekend, where the halfback looks like he is picking it up, but gets a knock or the ball moves, so he pulls out
That should be a penalty for baulking.
Absolutely - don't see this done enough where the halfback at ruck or scrum time is faking an exit. Its in the Law book that a team gets penalised for that.
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@NTA which is fine analysis, if Peyper didn't let the Irish defenders infringe with impunity at the ruck, hands on the ground/no release of tackled players/turnovers from their knees. It wasn't a case of favouring the attacking side, it was a case of allowing one side to do what they wanted to turn the ball over, while hammering the other side.
The penalty count on the weekend was massively lop-sided. While should probably still have worn the vast majority of ours, Ireland should definitely have had more.
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@NTA technically yes. But if the HB makes it look like he has been shoved by a counter-ruck, it would be very very tough for a ref to blow a penalty for something that is never called.
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@mariner4life
Yep, real baulking is no good, but that doesn't appear to clearly be what's going on. I think we've got a number of work ons about systems around the breakdown - pillar communication, speed, and chasing out too quickly.Personally, I think we were strongest there when we had Messam in the team as he often did that role well.
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@mariner4life said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
@NTA technically yes. But if the HB makes it look like he has been shoved by a counter-ruck, it would be very very tough for a ref to blow a penalty for something that is never called.
If he's got his hands on the ball, fuck 'em.
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@antipodean it's never been reffed that way, ever.
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@mariner4life said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
@antipodean it's never been reffed that way, ever.
Yes I'm well aware of that thanks. I'm pointing out that too many scrum halves put their hands on the ball, then start directing traffic, then pull the ball out.
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@antipodean nice snarky "thanks".
Was the interpretation changed a few years back from out being "hands on the ball" to actually when the ball is pulled from the ruck? Or was that only club rugby? My last couple of years playing that was definitely the rule i was playing under, but that doesn't mean the pro game is the same.
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Wow its like a fucking PMS-a-thon in here.
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@NTA said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
Wow its like a fucking PMS-a-thon in here.
Peyper Management Session??
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@NTA said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
Wow its like a fucking PMS-a-thon in here.
How's that cricket team looking this week Nick?
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@Virgil said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
@NTA said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
Wow its like a fucking PMS-a-thon in here.
How's that cricket team looking this week Nick?
Oh hello - Mrs Menopause just walked in.
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@mariner4life One in the second half really pissed me off. Finally got into the Irish 22, 2 players offside as the halfback starts shaping up to kick. One withdraws when signaled by the ref, the other doesn't and it's another penalty and pressure relieved. That wasn't Peyper's fault, that was dumb play and has been happening too often this season.
On the rucks, it seemed there was a lot of wrestling of the ball after ABs player was on his knees - release only happening when Peyper called release. Not to mention the "in from all sides" turnover styles at the ruck.
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@mariner4life I thought the new interpretation was that the halfback needs to pick the ball off the ground for the ruck to be over. Too much inconsistency by refs though.
I noticed the Quins halfback roll the ball back along the ground to clear the ball from feet vs the Maori. Technically he hadn't picked up the ball from said ruck so the offside still applied. Halfbacks eh?
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@Bovidae fluffybunnies to a man
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@mariner4life said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
Our offside penalties seem to be the result of our pillar/post defenders playing on anticipation, and everyone following them (as they should). The start to come forward when they think the halfback is going to pull the ball out, which is great when it's right, but when it's not...
I have noticed a few occasions, and at least a couple on the weekend, where the halfback looks like he is picking it up, but gets a knock or the ball moves, so he pulls out, but our boys have already gone. whistle. penalty. Peyper let a couple go because the guy going forward stopped and had not effect on play, but blew others.
There are definitely things for us to work on, even with a poor ref performance.
If when the half back touches the ball it is deemed to be out would stop a lot of this. But that is not the law. At the moment a number of half backs have their hands on the ball for an age and it is deemed still to be in the ruck. They can not dummy but they can step back which makes it look like they may pass.
if the half back puts his hands on the ball it has to be out of the ruck as he is not bound to the ruck or a player from either side.
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Can we merge this thread with the conspiracy theory one?
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@Catogrande said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
Can we merge this thread with the conspiracy theory one?
Conspiracies have an absence of facts.
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@antipodean Conspiracy theorists assume facts
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@Wreck-Diver said in Peyper Stats Vs AB:
if the half back puts his hands on the ball it has to be out of the ruck as he is not bound to the ruck or a player from either side.
I actually think the law right now is good. If this was the case, what if the halfback has to dig into the ruck to get the ball? As soon as his hands go on, the defence can come and tackle him, but it may be under three blokes bodies and take a few seconds to clear.
I agree we shouldn't allow halfbacks to take the piss and sit there for ages resting on the ball, but I think it's pretty obvious when the ball is 'clear' of the ruck. We always got told it's 'when a bird can shit on it', and I think it's a pretty good and easy rule to follow.
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I've said it before but if the refs were told to shout "ruck" and "out" for when a ruck is formed and when the ball is out it would clear up a shit load of grey areas in the game.
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@pukunui Yeah that's a decent shout but from a playing point of view, not sure I like. Like to more rely on decent judgement when in defence and it can allow you to get a bit of a jump on the 'halfback' before he's realised the ball is out.
