BOP Eruption?
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@Bovidae said in BOP Eruption?:
GNS appears to be the main advisors for police and the tour operators regarding risk assessment.
The variability of volcanology seems a bit random as the science develops. On Monday it was theoretically okay to travel to the Island at an Alert Level 2 from GNS. Since Monday afternoon the eruption risk is now assessed at 40% - 60% and it's not okay to travel (relatively) briefly to the Island, even with no further eruptions since Monday. A nightmare either way for all involved in that decision.
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@Donsteppa possibly due to the fact there are bodies still there?
Site will need to be blessed by Iwi too I expect.
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@taniwharugby said in BOP Eruption?:
@Donsteppa possibly due to the fact there are bodies still there?
Site will need to be blessed by Iwi too I expect.
Clarifying; I meant unsafe to visit the Island for body retrieval at Alert Level 2.
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@Donsteppa given the science seems unreliable, seems very finger in the wind guesswork.
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@Siam said in BOP Eruption?:
@Kirwan said in BOP Eruption?:
@Virgil said in BOP Eruption?:
Interesting hearing one of the pilots on RNZ this afternoon, early on they got the call no responders were going to the island which is why these pilots did what they did. Sounds ridiculous they weren’t going to act, what’s the point of being a first responder if your not going to respond?
First priority is not to put yourself in danger. And can end up with more people to rescue.
All good and well but that's not actually desirable human nature. That also wouldn't accommodate Tangiwai or Wahine or London Bridge or Glasgow Airport or Dunkirk.
You're not wrong but a better answer lies in the notion of your basic right to risk your life for others, should you so wish. Humanity has a whole library of selfless bravery in stories that we reach to to find meaning.
It's how we define heroes.
The inverse is a government that foments fear and cost and commands people to stay indoors while the "adults decide what's best.
You want rescue or recover people, then you should be able to do that.
You don't want to save the foolhardy rescuers, then don't
Just pointing out that when you join services like St John they train you to assess the risk, and if it's not safe to avoid making bad situations worse.
I agree that it's up to individual, but when it moved to a body recovery operation, risking more lives seems like too much of a risk IMO.
And Virgil, that Dunkirk example is stupid.
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@Virgil said in BOP Eruption?:
If they had no idea it was going to erupt on Monday how can they be sure it will erupt again now.
It’s an active volcano, I’d imagine no one at GNS wants to be the person to say yep your all good to go over now.
Wait until it gets back to alert level one and go with the usual disclaimer:
An eruption may occur at any level, and levels may not move in sequence as activity can change rapidly.That or let the relatives go over with a shovel...
What irritates me (beyond tour operators continuing to go on land after the alert level was raised) is the insistence of some relatives of the affected insisting 'my son-in-law never would have booked the excursion if he knew there was any chance of them being injured'. It's an active volcano, WTF did they think they were going to see?
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Now it sounds like the police are considering a data plan recovery, basically go in load up the bodies and leave. No looking around for evidence or noting the scene.
Seems to me that was the most logical option to begin with?
As I said earlier ( and someone commented) the pilots are confident they can get in and out of there with everyone in around 20 mins
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@Virgil said in BOP Eruption?:
As I said earlier ( and someone commented) the pilots are confident they can get in and out of there with everyone in around 20 mins
I bet ten bob to a knob that they can't get in and out in twenty mins. Have they already identified the location of the bodies individually?
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@Siam said in BOP Eruption?:
@Kirwan yep. A core tenet in saving a drowning swimmer.
Just irked in the overall and infantile "mummy knows best" messages seemingly dominating the NZ landscape after a tragic event.
No ANZAC services really really pissed me offI've avoided all coverage of this, except here on the Fern. My Mother in Law is here at the moment, and she lives in Whakatane, so getting updates from her too.
I just know the sort of coverage this sort of event gets here (and elsewhere) and it makes me sick.
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@antipodean said in BOP Eruption?:
What irritates me (beyond tour operators continuing to go on land after the alert level was raised) is the insistence of some relatives of the affected insisting 'my son-in-law never would have booked the excursion if he knew there was any chance of them being injured'. It's an active volcano, WTF did they think they were going to see?
Those claims are even more absurd when the people have to sign a waiver and are given a safety briefing before the tour.
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To be fair to the families, they are giving an instant emotional reaction to a questioning reporter who has appeared suddenly on the phone when their relatives are in a critical condition in a burns unit - in some cases over 10,000 kms away.
At this stage I'd give them a lot of latitude for their quotable quotes.
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@Hooroo said in BOP Eruption?:
@Virgil said in BOP Eruption?:
As I said earlier ( and someone commented) the pilots are confident they can get in and out of there with everyone in around 20 mins
I bet ten bob to a knob that they can't get in and out in twenty mins. Have they already identified the location of the bodies individually?
Supposedly they have, pretty sure i read they have even marked on a map for the police the location of those remaining on the island. The Kiwi guide who has been mentioned a lot was moved by one of the pilots to a better spot, he would have intended to come back to get him that day.
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@Virgil said in BOP Eruption?:
If they had no idea it was going to erupt on Monday how can they be sure it will erupt again now.
It’s an active volcano, I’d imagine no one at GNS wants to be the person to say yep your all good to go over now.
Not wanting to open arguments from earlier this morning, but kind of illustrates my earlier point about not allowing access.
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@booboo said in BOP Eruption?:
@Virgil said in BOP Eruption?:
If they had no idea it was going to erupt on Monday how can they be sure it will erupt again now.
It’s an active volcano, I’d imagine no one at GNS wants to be the person to say yep your all good to go over now.
Not wanting to open arguments from earlier this morning, but kind of illustrates my earlier point about not allowing access.
If the pilots want to go, if they are saying they are fine with the risk and confident they can get in and out then let them go
It was even admitted by the police that they could have gone on Tuesday but they failed to make the call. -
@booboo said in BOP Eruption?:
@Virgil said in BOP Eruption?:
@booboo said in BOP Eruption?:
@Virgil said in BOP Eruption?:
Yep can you imagine if Dunkirk took place now, it would be endless press conferences and risk assessments.. experts telling us they will only go in if they can manage the risks..
Back to White Island.. how the fuck can they manage the risk?... wait till it’s no longer an active volcano..
It must be very tempting for those chopper pilots to go rogue and head out to the island anyway
They're dead, they're not rescuing anyone.
Tell that to the families of the missing.. sorry they are dead it’s not important to get them back
Also I my point was from the very beginning, from what the pilots who landed on the island straight after the explosion said, no rescue services were going to actually rescue anyone. One pilot had to leave his co pilot behind so he could carry more injured, he was then told not to go back to get him.
I would, as the authorities are, not perhaps as harshly.
I think you're conflating two issues. Whilst there are people alive I'm on board with the sentiment. There's not now.
To only recover bodies at the risk of losing more lives is not a risk worth taking. Recovering the bodies will not bring them back. And the risk is certainly not worth it for some minor emotional benefit.
Not worth the risk? That's obviously an individual choice.
Govt are becoming more and more authoritarian as time goes on, liberties are only eroded and not built. It is concerning. -
So, let's say that one of these pilots decides - and is not prevented - from flying to the island for a deceased recovery operation.
They crash due to conditions, but are still alive and radio for help.
Is the government then obliged to send more live bodies in to rescue the living bodies that went after the dead bodies?
Or do they say "You exercised your individual choice to fly there. We are exercising our right to leave you to that choice"?
