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@rembrandt said in Brexit:
@mikethesnow said in Brexit:
All I know is when BJ was put on the spot about what he would do he shit the bed.
Because that is what invertebrates do when they're frightened
What was that on? I haven't seen much of BJ on it but JRM is very clued up. I have a Batten interview to get through too in the next couple days.
Saw it on the news. From the House of Commons. Challenged by another MP.
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In a side issue that might provide a reset of the whole thing there are a couple of major challenges to the referendum result itself in progress. One is a direct challenge on the result due to overspending and continued campaigning by Leave.EU after reaching spending thresholds. The argument being that many polled voters have said they made their minds up very late and the 'illegal' campaigning (mainly via facebook) was during that late period.
The National Crime Agency is also investigating Leave.EU on spending and funding irregularities and 'multiple criminal offences'.While this may be 'picking at the scab', what it does do is offer an opportunity for a re-run with a clearer plan ie a purpose for a peoples vote.
It would also offer an opportunity to sort out trade deals and borders BEFORE exiting so that negotiation with Brussels can be done from a position where 'no deal' is actually a viable option if they don't play fair.
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In a side issue that might provide a reset of the whole thing there are a couple of major challenges to the referendum result itself in progress. One is a direct challenge on the result due to overspending and continued campaigning by Leave.EU after reaching spending thresholds. The argument being that many polled voters have said they made their minds up very late and the 'illegal' campaigning (mainly via facebook) was during that late period.
The National Crime Agency is also investigating Leave.EU on spending and funding irregularities and 'multiple criminal offences'.While this may be 'picking at the scab', what it does do is offer an opportunity for a re-run with a clearer plan ie a purpose for a peoples vote.
It would also offer an opportunity to sort out trade deals and borders BEFORE exiting so that negotiation with Brussels can be done from a position where 'no deal' is actually a viable option if they don't play fair.
Jesus the desperation form the remainers is a thing to behold, they ave been screeching and throwing shit at the wall since day 1 post referendum. They are just hoping something .. anything... sticks.
I think it is the most obscene case of poor loser syndrome I have ever seen.
Understandable. the result was always going to be incredibly divisive.
What is particurly scary is the thought they actually think they will win and there not be a complete clusterfuck.
I had to chuckle at this line.
"what it does do is offer an opportunity for a re-run with a clearer plan ie a purpose for a peoples vote"
A re run is not needed, the plan is clear.... leave the EU, no need for a re run, he execution could have been done better, but the referendum was never about how does Britain execute a departure form the EU.
You cannot get inside voters heads and decide what they did and didnt know, the only thing they voted on was the question posed.
It is typical of the swamp to try and turn a straight forward vote on departure into some grotesque discussion on voter motives and bureaucratic process. -
It would also offer an opportunity to sort out trade deals and borders BEFORE exiting so that negotiation with Brussels can be done from a position where 'no deal' is actually a viable option if they don't play fair.
eh?
They have been negotiating trade deals and borders before exiting.
Unless you mean before triggering article 50 again? Which is just notice of intention to exit. I can understand how that would appeal to you as if they couldnt come to an agreement with a bureaucratic bunch of wankstains form the EU, the UK has to stay in the EU..... yeah the remainers would love that. -
@baron-silas-greenback I’m still concerned about what an exit with border controls - which I see as fundamental to honouring the spirit of the referendum result - means for the union.
The one clear thing that came through on the result is that the English in particular are fed up with the lack of immigration controls and on the surface that shouldn’t be too hard to resolve given the physical isolation of the country. But that’s not true of Ireland, which would be an island shared by an EU state as well as 5he UK. On the one hand you’ve got a large part of the Northern Irish population who are implacably opposed to a physical border between Ulster and Eire, and have a demonstrated willingness to resort to violence to get their way. On the other hand, another part of the population are infuriated by the idea of a border between Ulster and the mainland UK. They think of themselves as Brits and don’t accept that they might have to have a border within their country as the price of maintaining the lack of one with e “different” state. And they’re just as inclined to be violent to get their way. The DUP have made it pretty clear they won’t stand for it and that means the end of the coalition, but that could be just the start of a pretty turbulent period. That is a very high price to pay IMO.
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As for the “People’s Choice” option, I don’t see the point. The people already chose. The whole idea seems to be predicated on an assumption that huge numbers of people have changed their minds. I’ve been back again recently and I don’t think they have changed their minds. The people I know who voted to remain are still remainers. The leavers still want to leave. In fact if anything (and I know this is only anecdotal) I have several acquaintances who think that if the London ponces are unhappy with the way Brexit is going then that’s an even better reason to push on.
I’ve said before, I voted to remain and would (will) again. But just like with many things in life that you don’t like or agree with, there comes a time when you just have to suck it up and make it work. The whole debacle has just turned into the worst kind of slow motion train wreck.
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@crucial Have you got any examples of JRM doing this? I've done some googling but haven't found anything, genuinely curious because what I have seen on him has been very positive and well thought out. Can't find that blueprint either, which is a shame, just because it was thrown out doesn't mean it was trash. These conservatives seem pretty keen to stand behind a useless leader so may not have wanted to undermine her negotiation.
The whole idea of a peoples vote is appalling. Britain voted to leave, if this does not happen then democracy is over. The sheer arrogance that has come from this vote tarring 'leavers' as racists or stupid. I and a number of my friends were remainers at the time are now Brexiteers in part due to the remainer tantrums and the ongoing efforts to thwart a democratic decision. I don't know anyone who has gone the other way but no doubt with the aid of bbc/guardian/independent/TVmedia's 'project hysteria' there are probably some.
No deal Brexit isn't ideal by any means but the EU is a sinking ship, best to get out now before it really collapses and if they have any sense they will work with the UK to lesson the impact both ways. Looking at the riots in France right now, how long before we see a real demand for Frexit emerge? Italy certainly want out, Hungary/Poland/Czech have all seen the authoritarian reality of the EU, Sweden on its current path isn't too far away and even Germany with the rise of the AfD and the continued social problems resulting from Merkels horrendous migration policies could too want an end to this established order. ..and the EU's reaction to all of this.. well they want an army..can't see that ending well for anyone.
We're certainly in for some interesting/exciting/terrifying times in the next few months as it all plays out.
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I find the activist naming a re-vote as a 'peoples choice' incredibly unsubtle propaganda.
The people already mnade a choice. Activists can name the revote as 'peoples choice' but it is obviously not actually about a peoples choice, it is about tantrums an 'do overs' until you get your own way. Remainers think of JRM as a teenager.. he is still more mature than the remainers who are acting like toddlers having a tantrum -
@baron-silas-greenback said in Brexit:
I find the activist naming a re-vote as a 'peoples choice' incredibly unsubtle propaganda.
The people already mnade a choice. Activists can name the revote as 'peoples choice' but it is obviously not actually about a peoples choiceIt's because activists don't really regard those who voted for Brexit as normal people. To them at best they are idiots who are too uneducated to make their own life decisions and need decisions made for them or at worst literal nazis...same mentality as those running the EU, a lack of introspection coupled with a hard-on for authoritarian control.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Brexit:
I find the activist naming a re-vote as a 'peoples choice' incredibly unsubtle propaganda.
The people already mnade a choice. Activists can name the revote as 'peoples choice' but it is obviously not actually about a peoples choice, it is about tantrums an 'do overs' until you get your own way. Remainers think of JRM as a teenager.. he is still more mature than the remainers who are acting like toddlers having a tantrumIf you actually followed what has been developing over the past few months you would understand that the 'people's choice' talk is about accepting May's deal not about re-running the original decision.
Apart from a few hard core remainers most people have accepted the position and the concern is now how to make it happen without causing great damage. Conversely there are 'Leave means leave' campaigners who still seem to think that closing the gates and walking away is a viable option that won't cause great damage. They are being fed by the likes of BJ and JRM who tell them that all papers, analysis and studies into the effects of a no deal walk away are lies funded by remainers yet have not come up with any studies or plans of their own that prove otherwise.The point I was making about the legal challenges to the original referendum is that in the unlikely event that the result was annulled it would at least offer an ability to re-run properly with clear agendas in place on what is doable and in what time frames and place the UK in a stronger position to negotiate. The process that was followed has proved to be a fuck up and an opportunity to have the time over again may be good. It was simply a discussion point rather than a personal desire.
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People are getting fearful of how much a no-deal (or even a shit-deal) Brexit is going to really devalue their lives. Even if 5% of the negativity written by the scare mongering media is true, it's not great.
It's pretty easy to say we are better off out, but very different when your job potentially hinges on it. That position relates to my entire company and many of my pals in the city. Most of us are in the "fortunate" bucket, many people have switched from the fortunate to the unfortunate before, and nobody is immune in a situation like this.
Like others, I'm not convinced that a re-vote would have a different outcome. But many are, and many people who potentially stand to lose a lot are pushing the train. Reality is that what Farage/Johnson sold to the country, is not one of the two options left on the table at this point in time. The fact we got here is the colossal clusterfuck, of which many people, including Farage/Johnson must take a fair share of the blame.
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
Reality is that what Farage/Johnson sold to the country, is not one of the two options left on the table at this point in time. The fact we got here is the colossal clusterfuck, of which many people, including Farage/Johnson must take a fair share of the blame.
This
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Watch David Lammy’s barnstorming speech to the Commons on Brexit
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@mikethesnow said in Brexit:
Watch David Lammy’s barnstorming speech to the Commons on Brexit
Where were these impassioned speeches in early 2016 before the vote? It's a shame Britain voted out (I voted remain) but it's done now and it needs to be implemented as best it can be. The amount of time-wasting about "having another go" is a huge distraction. Democracy doesn't only apply when you get the result you want.
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@mikethesnow said in Brexit:
Watch David Lammy’s barnstorming speech to the Commons on Brexit
Where were these impassioned speeches in early 2016 before the vote? It's a shame Britain voted out (I voted remain) but it's done now and it needs to be implemented as best it can be. The amount of time-wasting about "having another go" is a huge distraction. Democracy doesn't only apply when you get the result you want.
Isn't that what most of those who matter are trying to do?
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@mikethesnow said in Brexit:
Watch David Lammy’s barnstorming speech to the Commons on Brexit
Where were these impassioned speeches in early 2016 before the vote? It's a shame Britain voted out (I voted remain) but it's done now and it needs to be implemented as best it can be. The amount of time-wasting about "having another go" is a huge distraction. Democracy doesn't only apply when you get the result you want.
Isn't that what most of those who matter are trying to do?
Yes, mostly. I was referring the speech directly, which while a cracking bit of rhetoric is missing the point IMO.
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It’s like there’s a game on to see how many ways they can fuck this up. Impressive.
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@catogrande Game of Brexit...carnage everywhere, there is a plot line but it keeps getting changed and no one knows how it will end.
Brexit