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@antipodean said in The Folau Factor:
@Virgil said in The Folau Factor:
@antipodean said in The Folau Factor:
I believe he posted while on PAID leave from the Waratahs (which he is pictured wearing on his Twitter acc)
So he wasn't at work?
So that maccas guy only has to wait for his shift to end and he’s free to say what he wants there?
What part of the location are you having difficulty grasping?
Not having any difficulty at all.
Clearly my example is a differing employment situation. -
@NTA said in The Folau Factor:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in The Folau Factor:
I think your post was shit speech (and vice versa I am sure) should I delete your post and threaten you that if you disagree with me again on free speech you will be banned?
I don't think for a moment that anybody is unaware of the merits of free speech on TSF.
I disagree I think there are plenty of posters who dont know the merits of free speech at all. I dont blame them, I blame the media who has easily influenced them into being prepared to let large entities decide for them what free speech means.
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@Virgil said in The Folau Factor:
@antipodean said in The Folau Factor:
@Virgil said in The Folau Factor:
@antipodean said in The Folau Factor:
I believe he posted while on PAID leave from the Waratahs (which he is pictured wearing on his Twitter acc)
So he wasn't at work?
So that maccas guy only has to wait for his shift to end and he’s free to say what he wants there?
What part of the location are you having difficulty grasping?
Not having any difficulty at all.
Clearly my example is a differing employment situation.Well I don't see the relevance to Folau. However in your case, I'd sack the tourettes suffering clown.
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@Virgil said in The Folau Factor:
If a Mcdonalds employee gave a sermon every tine he served a customer a shitty Big Mac or kids happy meal, shouted all gays will burn in hell.
How long will he hang onto his job for?I would go to that Maccas every time I needed a fix just to see that.
Also less of the insults about big macs thanks, we were all joking around but you took it a step too far there.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in The Folau Factor:
@MN5 said in The Folau Factor:
@No-Quarter said in The Folau Factor:
@NTA said in The Folau Factor:
@MN5 said in The Folau Factor:
I’ll put it much more simply then.
He was warned by his employers to tow the line after crossing it.
He didn’t. He’s faced the consequences. End of story.
It keeps being said that Folau can hold whatever beliefs he wants. He just can't publicly express them while in the employ of someone who has expressly forbidden him to say that.
If I share titty pics around my workplace, or associate my work with titty pics, I'd expect much the same punishment. And let me tell you: my position as Exalted First Cardinal in The Church Of Titty Pics wouldn't save me.
But of course, once you go down the "MAH FREEDUMB!" path, nobody can possibly win except the people holding shit beliefs.
"Free speech" is a construct used quite often for shit people to say shit things. Say what you want, but be prepared for the consequences.
Sharing titty pics around the workplace would constitute sexual harassment and would be dealt with as such, and can be taken to the Employment Court to resolve. That is not the same thing as posting religious beliefs on your personal social media account. Not even close.
But both examples are bringing the Employer into disrepute. Same principle....
No it isnt. But that will be for the courts to decide. You cannot just fire employees for being dicks in their own time. Imagine if someone attended a climate change protest and the employer didnt like green taxes so fired the person for bringing the company into disrepute... courts would slaughter the employer, and that isnt even touching the freedom of religion angle.
Or if you are drunk one night and yell out an expletive to a mate across the road in jest, you think you could be fired for bringing the company into disrepute?Well yeah. If you’re a sales rep or whatever and someone sees you acting like a fluffybunny on the piss and tells management then in some cases people do get the boot.
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@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@antipodean said in The Folau Factor:
People who eat Big Macs will burn in hell. The true McDonald's burger is a quarter pounder.
I QP but occasionally dip my toe in the big Mac pool. The Jonah burger was the business though. They have a big tasty over here which is pretty good.
The Big Cheese is a solid option if you're sporting a hangover.
Agree with the comments above, there's no way @Virgil's comments are protected by free speech. Whoever he works for should tear up his $30 thousand dollar contract immediately.
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@antipodean said in The Folau Factor:
People who eat Big Macs will burn in hell. The true McDonald's burger is a quarter pounder.
Are you sure about that? I haven't checked Izzys instagram but I'm sure it would have been mentioned if that was the case.
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@jegga said in The Folau Factor:
@antipodean said in The Folau Factor:
People who eat Big Macs will burn in hell. The true McDonald's burger is a quarter pounder.
Are you sure about that? I haven't checked Izzys instagram but I'm sure it would have been mentioned if that was the case.
False idols and all that...
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@nzzp said in The Folau Factor:
@No-Quarter said in The Folau Factor:
It's something my wife said immediately - that RA had ostracised a large portion of the PI community with their intolerance of players expressing conservative Christian beliefs. Will be interesting to see if many more speak out.
ARU: We're such a diverse and inclusive organisation we're excluding you for your genuinely held beliefs.
Personally, I'm a bit surprised at the number of people here who are very comfortable with employers having such control over the religious expression of their employees. Folau's a muppet, and I totally disagree with him, but getting the sack over a tweet is pretty extreme.
I don't get the impression people here are OK generally with employers imposing speech restrictions on their employees, but the fact is it happens, we've probably all got such or similar restrictions in our own employment contracts and not many of us have the bargaining power to have them removed.
So far as I'm aware, there is nothing illegal about two private legal individuals (one being a corporation, the ARU, and the other a natural person, Folau) agreeing such restrictions. Free speech really only prevents the government from legislating such restrictions.
Of course, that isn't to say anything about the morality of agreeing or imposing such restrictions (and I'm with the free speech crew here). However, if Folau's religious speech was so important to him, he shouldn't have signed a contract containing - or otherwise referring to or incorporating - such restrictions!
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@Virgil said in The Folau Factor:
If a Mcdonalds employee gave a sermon every tine he served a customer a shitty Big Mac or kids happy meal, shouted all gays will burn in hell.
How long will he hang onto his job for?If McDonalds sacked an employee who was typing personal material on his own time, how big do you think the wrongful dismissal lawsuit might reach??
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Clearly, the solution has to be for all players under contract to STFU, keep ALL opinions private, and forbid ALL social media. Outlaw tattoos, too.... could be secret illuminati symbology in there, can never be too careful, wouldn’t want to corrupt the children. Maybe make the players wear burqas when they do press conferences too, with socks in their mouths.
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@Salacious-Crumb said in The Folau Factor:
@Virgil said in The Folau Factor:
If a Mcdonalds employee gave a sermon every tine he served a customer a shitty Big Mac or kids happy meal, shouted all gays will burn in hell.
How long will he hang onto his job for?If McDonalds sacked an employee who was typing personal material on his own time, how big do you think the wrongful dismissal lawsuit might reach??
This is an interesting one. If the employee had a Twitter account with a picture of him in Maccas garb then would Maccas have a right to censure him because he was still representing the company? Same with Folau. His Twitter has a picture of him in Waratahs gear. Does that then mean he's representing them or affiliated with them when he tweets?
I guess the bigger question is whether someone like Folau is permitted to say what he wants regardless of whether it's a "work" situation. Is it fair to claim he's always on the job and that his very handsome remuneration package is adequate compensation for him essentially not having the right to say what he wants?
There was talk on the radio this morning of team mates who will refuse to play with him of he's reinstated. I question the accuracy of that, but if true why were they still playing with him after what he said last year? Seems the spirit of Qantas is strong in everyone involved in this sorry saga.
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Jesus what an absolute shit show. RWC chances all but gone before the tournament has started all because of a single social media post. We live in strange times.
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@Rocky-Rockbottom said in The Folau Factor:
@No-Quarter said in The Folau Factor:
all because of a single social media post. We live in strange times.
It is such a mindfuck. If I'm an agent the first thing I tell my player is "if you look on your phone you will see there's these two internet websites called instagram.com and twitter.com. Do not register an account at either of these fucking websites. That is all."
Nobody probably disagrees that is good avice. It is why it is good advice that is the problem, athletes should not be scared to say what they believe as long as it is legal
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@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@NightmareHitter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
I feel greatly saddened and wanted to express this. Not sure others feel the same way but....
After almost 38 years of passionate (and i mean passionate) sports following of Rugby, league, cricket and boxing etc I feel we are now watching the death of true competitive sports.
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Politics has fully taken over now.
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Freedom of speech no longer exists
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Money dictates the ruling opinion
Politics has NOT fully taken over - Massive overstatement.
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
The consequences are always the debated point, no matter what. Otherwise you can claim people had freedom of speech in Nazi Germany, it was just what happens as a consequence that was up for debate.
Simply put, if the consequences are disproportionate then the value of free speech is eroded.
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@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
A society where you can lose your job for legally expressing an opinion is not a society which has freedom of speech.
Sportsmen and woman who express an opinion and speak out for gay rights (rightly) aren't dropped from their teams - but those with an opposite view are.
As you say, sport reflects society.
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@NightmareHitter said in [Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?]
Rieko is faster not better than Falou.
This comment is more offensive than anything Folau tweeted.
I'm all for free speech but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
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@No-Quarter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@NightmareHitter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
I feel greatly saddened and wanted to express this. Not sure others feel the same way but....
After almost 38 years of passionate (and i mean passionate) sports following of Rugby, league, cricket and boxing etc I feel we are now watching the death of true competitive sports.
-
Politics has fully taken over now.
-
Freedom of speech no longer exists
-
Money dictates the ruling opinion
Politics has NOT fully taken over - Massive overstatement.
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
The consequences are always the debated point, no matter what. Otherwise you can claim people had freedom of speech in Nazi Germany, it was just what happens as a consequence that was up for debate.
Simply put, if the consequences are disproportionate then the value of free speech is eroded.
I think that is the best elucidated post in regard to the Fallow issue
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@No-Quarter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@NightmareHitter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
I feel greatly saddened and wanted to express this. Not sure others feel the same way but....
After almost 38 years of passionate (and i mean passionate) sports following of Rugby, league, cricket and boxing etc I feel we are now watching the death of true competitive sports.
-
Politics has fully taken over now.
-
Freedom of speech no longer exists
-
Money dictates the ruling opinion
Politics has NOT fully taken over - Massive overstatement.
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
The consequences are always the debated point, no matter what. Otherwise you can claim people had freedom of speech in Nazi Germany, it was just what happens as a consequence that was up for debate.
Simply put, if the consequences are disproportionate then the value of free speech is eroded.
I am curious though, where the line can/should be drawn regarding public statements from a high profile employee and who decides what a proportionate consequence is. eg if Folau was expressing extreme racist views doesn't that come under the same definition of free speech? Therefore someone gets to decide whether that is intolerable or not.
If the concept of free speech is the same and the view of the consequence decider the same are people therefore just really arguing that some things claim immunity because they are religious beliefs?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
A society where you can lose your job for legally expressing an opinion is not a society which has freedom of speech.
Sportsmen and woman who express an opinion and speak out for gay rights (rightly) aren't dropped from their teams - but those with an opposite view are.
As you say, sport reflects society.
Legally, I can call my boss a fucking piston wristed gibbon. I can shout it from the rooftops if I want, legally.
Freedom of speech means I can’t lose my job?
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions