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@reprobate said in North Korea:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in North Korea:
The wailing about Trumps emotive language towards North Korea is bloody hilarious.
Because all the pussy footing aorund with appeasements has worked so bloody well hasnt it. Now a dictator nutjob regime has nukes capable of reaching the mainland US.... great job Clinton, Bu x2 2 and Obama.. stella job there guys. You really negotiated up a storm there! If by negotiated you mean bent over and dropped your pants to take one up the Hershey highway.
If Obama was this visionary leader, Nobel peace prize winner and great statesmen he night have actually done ... something (as opposed to talking reeeeeeeally slowly).
If there is a massive conflict, it wont be on Trumps shoulders, it will be the 5-6 presidents before him who had a policy of appeasement and head in the sand stupidity.
Oh boo fucking hoo.. Trump threatened NK, maybe if a few presidents before them had actually done their job the US wouldnt be in this situation.
What exactly is the solution if you think Trump is handling it so badly? How is he supposed to clean up his predecessors mess?Why do you so consistently characterise people who have differing opinions to your own as wailing, shouting, crying etc? It's quite strange.
Trump's language is inflammatory, in a situation where many people think that isn't the best approach, that's all.
Secondly, in several of your posts you've said that trump was saying that if north Korea nuked the states they'd get nuked to shit, which is obvious. That is obvious, but it is not what trump said. What he said was, threaten us again, and we will nuke you. Which is really quite different. Taken literally it means a nuclear pre-emptive attack by the US if Kim opens his mouth. That's an extraordinary call, with all the massive civilian casualties to north Korea, definitely south Korea, and probably Japan, that it implies.
Most of the west assume he doesn't mean what he says, but does Korea? And if not, what does this lead to?
The topic under discussion was trump's behaviour in this situation. As others have said, talking about past presidents is irrelevant to that topic. He is in this situation now, and his behaviour matters. The 'how we got to this point' is an interesting and valid topic of discussion itself, but it's a separate one.I categorise it as wailing because it is. The level of vitriol over everything Trump does is ludicrous. I wasn't referring to people on this board alone but all sufferers if Trump derangement syndrome... especially in the media.
And what is with trying you trying to tell other what they are allowed to talk about and what is relevant? You don't get to decide that... and you definately dobt get to control the discussion because the opposing views raised issues that don't suit your narrative.
Past presidents words and actions are relevant. Unless you just trying to drive a hate Trump narrative. But that has already been explained but I suspect context is irksome for some when the real point is attacking Trump. -
zzzzzz
Lets move on from the circular I like/don't like Trump shit
Anyway back on topic.. I thought it was interesting how much reaction there was to the DIA saying that NK had a "miniaturized nuclear warhead" this week
Here's an article from 2013 where the DIA said the same thing:
Also note they suspected the same thing in 2005 & 2011
The initial Washington Post reporting on this was good but the pundit reaction way over the top.
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@Duluth said in North Korea:
Anyway back on topic.. I thought it was interesting how much reaction there was to the DIA saying that NK had a "miniaturized nuclear warhead" this week
Here's an article from 2013 where the DIA said the same thing:
Also note they suspected the same thing in 2005 & 2011
Lol it's the rugby fan equivalent of "THIS IS THE YEAR!"
Not much funny about nukes.
Trump is just dialling it up to thirteen, much like he always does. That's his style. I think he and Fat Boy would get on well.
Blaming his predecessors intimates that they could stop the current fat fuck from being an even bigger dickhead than his dad or gramps. NK is a dictatorial mess. External policy isn't going to change that. Particularly sanctions - the regime don't give a fuck about their citizens, and it's not like they're begging outsiders for help.
I don't think the USA has much to worry abut from a strategic POV militarily, but Seoul will cop the brunt of any action by NK before it's possible to react. Similarly, even if the US was dumb enough to go pre emptive, the amount of conventional ordnance pointed South, and ready to die, would cause some huge carnage.
Escalation is what happens after that.
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@NTA said in North Korea:
the regime don't give a fuck about their citizens, and it's not like they're begging outsiders for help.
In the 90's they prevented the UN from helping during the famines. The rationale was that if the people got food from someone other than the NK Government it would undermine the regime.
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@Duluth said in North Korea:
zzzzzz
Lets move on from the circular I like/don't like Trump shit
Anyway back on topic.. I thought it was interesting how much reaction there was to the DIA saying that NK had a "miniaturized nuclear warhead" this week
Here's an article from 2013 where the DIA said the same thing:
Also note they suspected the same thing in 2005 & 2011
The initial Washington Post reporting on this was good but the pundit reaction way over the top.
It was interesting to read how complex these devices are and how they won't necessarily explode, i.e if the tech is shit the warhead may harmlessly hit the earth.
I'm not worried about this. Kim Fat Bastard isn't suicidal and isn't stupid enough to actually throw a nuclear warhead at anyone. It's all posturing. He'll spin it as a propaganda victory and eat another pie.
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Their nukes are entirely a defensive weapon. The regime is deeply paranoid that the rest of the world is hell bent on regime change.
James Clapper recently suggested that providing engagement and recognition may be the best solution because all other alternatives simply haven't worked or are untenable.
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Who was Trumps threat aimed at?
To whom did he NEED to get that message across to?
The North Korean population? They aren't going to get that footage
The members of North Korea's executive in a bid to dissuade their leader from threatening again?Was the threat aimed at Kim? I guess so.
So what, there are no other means of communicating to this guy?
The most effective communication to stave off nuclear war is announcing it at a dinner party? - now every news item is about an imminent threat of nuclear war. Did we really need that nonsense?
Why grandstand in front of the world to get this very very serious message across?What purpose does that serve that an official missive to Kim wouldn't?
Trump was showing off rather than effectively getting his message to the intended recipients, which is not really necessary or best practice for such a grave and serious situation.
Not so good Don. Playing silly games for attention using nuclear war as a vehicle, nah, not so good Don
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@Siam said in North Korea:
Was the threat aimed at Kim? I guess so.
So what, there are no other means of communicating to this guy?
The most effective communication to stave off nuclear war is announcing it at a dinner party? - now every news item is about an imminent threat of nuclear war. Did we really need that nonsense?
Why grandstand in front of the world to get this very very serious message across?Well this piece of completely non-surprising news broke today
Despite the bombastic rhetoric exchanged between North Korean and American leaders this week, the Trump administration has been quietly engaged in back-channel diplomacy with North Korea for several months, according to a source familiar with the negotiations.
Tillerson has also has been taking the traditional SoS role like Albright etc. It's good cop bad cop, with multiple levels of communication.
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@Duluth Yeah not surprised and obviously diplomatic communication techniques will have been ongoing.
A bit annoyed that the president deems it necessary to inflame the situation to an audience covering basically everybody but North Korea itself - i assume the intended recipients of the fire and fury message
we've got enough "the sky is falling hysteria" without Trump adding to it all
All just a bit sad and unnecessary
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in North Korea:
@Crucial said in North Korea:
There's a big difference to getting your 'big stick' ready or demonstrating a show of force and publicly goading an opponent.
Much like the ABs camp may be doing this week. They will be saying internally 'we hate these fuckers and this is our plan to put them away' while publicly not goading them into a fury.
Both of these leaders have shown they are bullshit artists that react impulsively to threats. Yelling at each other over the fence is not going to help matters one bit.
Now I have no problem if Trump decides that the NK regime needs to be dealt with but FFS come up with a proper plan don't just escalate and threaten.
Goading? That isn't goading.. it is stating the bloody obvious! Attack my country and I will attack yours savagely.. is not goading. And it isn't escalating either. I am all in favour of calling politicians out over threats and broken red lines. Obama made that horrendous mistake over the red line in Syria, Clinton made a similar fuck up when threatening to attack if NK got nukes. Both were clearly grandstanding and were never going to back it up.
Trump means every word he said, and everyone with a brain knows it.. and they know he is right and correct in his threat.
Anyone here prepared to say that if NK nukes the US then the US wont unleash hell on NK.. anyone? I am glad a leader had the honesty to just answer a straight question with a straight and honest answer that everyone knew the answer to anyway.
And how do you know they dont have plans? You do know that answering a question doesn't mean they have no plans?
And so I am sure they are not 'just' threatening. I am fascinated to know what thought process you went through to decide that they had no plan and were just escalating and threatening.
And how does the first ever unanimous security council vote on tougher NK sanctions figure into your theory that they have no plan? Was that just a random act that happened to come up at a security council session?*Trump means every word he said, and everyone with a brain knows it.. and they know he is right and correct in his threat.
This is rubbish
Trump is going to do what exactly?
Start a nuclear or ballistic attack because a serial nutjob (but outstanding golfer) is talking nonsense? No he's not
or
retaliate with extreme force if a country attacks the USA? that doesn't need confirming publicly - every president would do that if a nation attacked the USA in an act of war -
@Siam said in North Korea:
@Duluth Yeah not surprised and obviously diplomatic communication techniques will have been ongoing.
A bit annoyed that the president deems it necessary to inflame the situation to an audience covering basically everybody but North Korea itself - i assume the intended recipients of the fire and fury message
we've got enough "the sky is falling hysteria" without Trump adding to it all
All just a bit sad and unnecessary
Indeed and now China, the one country who may be able to rein in that fat twat in NK, is getting pissed of with all the shouty-ness.
Of course it may be possible that the rhetoric from Trump is a calculated policy to encourage the NKs to be more open to the diplomatic route but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way at present. However it is also possible that it is not meant to seem that way.
My guess is that this whole affair will fizzle out and the Trumpsters will claim victory for Don and the nay-sayers will say it was despite Trump. We will never know which is right, but we can all be safe in our own biases.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in North Korea:
The wailing about Trumps emotive language towards North Korea is bloody hilarious.
Because all the pussy footing aorund with appeasements has worked so bloody well hasnt it. Now a dictator nutjob regime has nukes capable of reaching the mainland US.... great job Clinton, Bu x2 2 and Obama.. stella job there guys. You really negotiated up a storm there! If by negotiated you mean bent over and dropped your pants to take one up the Hershey highway.
If Obama was this visionary leader, Nobel peace prize winner and great statesmen he night have actually done ... something (as opposed to talking reeeeeeeally slowly).
If there is a massive conflict, it wont be on Trumps shoulders, it will be the 5-6 presidents before him who had a policy of appeasement and head in the sand stupidity.
Oh boo fucking hoo.. Trump threatened NK, maybe if a few presidents before them had actually done their job the US wouldnt be in this situation.
What exactly is the solution if you think Trump is handling it so badly? How is he supposed to clean up his predecessors mess?Wow. To be fair, forget Trump becaue he inherited a mess like every President before him but this statement shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation. NK has been under the complete protection of China until recently. Would any US President risk potentially millions of South Korean and Japanese lives, a world economic crisis nuclear war, etc etc. Head in the sand stupidity!?! Damn!!!
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@Catogrande said in North Korea:
@Siam said in North Korea:
@Duluth Yeah not surprised and obviously diplomatic communication techniques will have been ongoing.
A bit annoyed that the president deems it necessary to inflame the situation to an audience covering basically everybody but North Korea itself - i assume the intended recipients of the fire and fury message
we've got enough "the sky is falling hysteria" without Trump adding to it all
All just a bit sad and unnecessary
Indeed and now China, the one country who may be able to rein in that fat twat in NK, is getting pissed of with all the shouty-ness.
Of course it may be possible that the rhetoric from Trump is a calculated policy to encourage the NKs to be more open to the diplomatic route but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way at present. However it is also possible that it is not meant to seem that way.
My guess is that this whole affair will fizzle out and the Trumpsters will claim victory for Don and the nay-sayers will say it was despite Trump. We will never know which is right, but we can all be safe in our own biases.
Inside reports were that there was nothing planned at all. He wouldn't take counsel on the subject and ad-libbed using terms he had used previously in private
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@Crucial said in North Korea:
@Catogrande said in North Korea:
@Siam said in North Korea:
@Duluth Yeah not surprised and obviously diplomatic communication techniques will have been ongoing.
A bit annoyed that the president deems it necessary to inflame the situation to an audience covering basically everybody but North Korea itself - i assume the intended recipients of the fire and fury message
we've got enough "the sky is falling hysteria" without Trump adding to it all
All just a bit sad and unnecessary
Indeed and now China, the one country who may be able to rein in that fat twat in NK, is getting pissed of with all the shouty-ness.
Of course it may be possible that the rhetoric from Trump is a calculated policy to encourage the NKs to be more open to the diplomatic route but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way at present. However it is also possible that it is not meant to seem that way.
My guess is that this whole affair will fizzle out and the Trumpsters will claim victory for Don and the nay-sayers will say it was despite Trump. We will never know which is right, but we can all be safe in our own biases.
Inside reports were that there was nothing planned at all. He wouldn't take counsel on the subject and ad-libbed using terms he had used previously in private
Seems plausible
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@canefan said in North Korea:
@Crucial said in North Korea:
@Catogrande said in North Korea:
@Siam said in North Korea:
@Duluth Yeah not surprised and obviously diplomatic communication techniques will have been ongoing.
A bit annoyed that the president deems it necessary to inflame the situation to an audience covering basically everybody but North Korea itself - i assume the intended recipients of the fire and fury message
we've got enough "the sky is falling hysteria" without Trump adding to it all
All just a bit sad and unnecessary
Indeed and now China, the one country who may be able to rein in that fat twat in NK, is getting pissed of with all the shouty-ness.
Of course it may be possible that the rhetoric from Trump is a calculated policy to encourage the NKs to be more open to the diplomatic route but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way at present. However it is also possible that it is not meant to seem that way.
My guess is that this whole affair will fizzle out and the Trumpsters will claim victory for Don and the nay-sayers will say it was despite Trump. We will never know which is right, but we can all be safe in our own biases.
Inside reports were that there was nothing planned at all. He wouldn't take counsel on the subject and ad-libbed using terms he had used previously in private
Seems plausible
That's the worst part.
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My Hokkaido friends were startled, then pissed off.
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@Kirwan said in North Korea:
Man, does this guy want to be bombed or what?
Right? I don't get it. Many of their actions make some sense to me in a straight up realpolitik sense, but this just seems like he is looking for a fight.
Worse is that actions like this will make it easier for Abe to get the constitution changed. That doesn't fill me with confidence...
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It is like a grand form of dance-off with the USA.
Fatboy probably thinks the appointment of Trump - another posturing bullshitter - is perfect for this sort of international military theatre.
I mean its not like NK citizens would know if a missile flew over Japan or not, because the regime could just tell them whatever they wanted, and the average person has no way to investigate whether its true or not. And even if they did - not like they can stand up and say KJU is a bullshitter. Short march to a death camp.
So fire a real missile with no ordnance, and stay relevant.
If at some point the rhetoric from NK turns nuclear, then it would be a massive, stupid tragedy, because that is an exchange they can't win. They know that, and it would just be a question of how the retaliation takes place i.e. conventional warfare on the peninsula, or retaliation in kind. And the only people to really suffer from that will be NK citizens, who have suffered enough.
North Korea